I want a DS5!

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Re: I want a DS5!

Post by Xaccers »

A worn out knackered sphere, ie one with either very little or no gas, gives a stiffer ride, you said that's dangerous.

I said they're death traps waiting to happen, every steel sprung car I've driven over 100K miles have been on their original shocks because previous owners haven't realised the suspension needed changing as it was still holding the car up, and comparing them to new cars or a Xantia it really shows (as I mentioned, a 205 I had would lurch to one side under braking), which by your research would mean 50% worn, I have known people running on original shocks heading towards 200K completely oblivious that anything was wrong because the car still rolled along so it must be fine right? The fact they wouldn't be able to stop as quickly didn't ever occur to them. Actually thinking back, one of the guys I knew from school rear ended two cars before the repair garage pointed out he needed new front suspension.


Old steel sprung suspension = dangerous
Old spheres = stiffer ride
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Re: I want a DS5!

Post by Peter.N. »

The Austin A40 van that I learn't to drive in regularly needed the front dampers replaced and they really were worn out, if you hit a bump the van would bounce all over the road and you had to brake hard to regain control, in the 50+ years since then I have never had a problem with dampers, mind you 25+ of that has been on hydropnumatics.

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Re: I want a DS5!

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What needs to be born in mind in this debate is that when sphere's lose pressure it restricts suspension travel which is very dangerous as the wheels cannot follow the contours of the road so causes a lack of grip and as many boy racers have found out the hard way it is also illegal to drive a car on public roads in that condition with suspension slammed down on the floor with limited travel.

To suggest that any steel sprung car that has done 100k miles on its original suspension components is therefore dangerous is quite frankly ludicrous [-X yes some will be but certainly not all, after all if a shock absorber is faulty the car will/should fail an MOT,,,,,

On a similar vein struts on hydraulic Citroen's wear with mileage which reduces the degree of damping they provide, drive my 36k VSX and its as tight as a tight thing, then compare it with a 100k+ mileage one and you'll notice quite a difference. Replace the shock absorbers/bush's on a steel sprung car and the suspension is pretty much back to brand new, replace the sphere's/bush's on a hydraulic Citroen and it's only part of the way back to being brand new. Has anyone here ever replaced the struts on their hydraulic Citroen other than when they are leaking?
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Re: I want a DS5!

Post by Xaccers »

Except a sphere that is so low it restricts suspension movement to the level that it cannot follow the contours of a road it is well past it's replacement date.
Come on Richard, you said BMW's don't break springs so are you really knowledgeable enough to comment? (tee-hee couldn't resist ;) )
Seriously though, perhaps that's the reason why modern cars seem more prone to snapping springs, if their dampeners are more robust then that's going to be stressing the springs more.
Are you saying though that worn shocks don't increase stopping distances or affect the handling of a car and all the previous research into the matter is a myth?
If a strut wears enough to affect the dampening, then that's one hell of a leak.
Remember the flow of LHM into the strut is able to more than match the flow out around the piston, maintaining the pressure and therefore dampening.
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Post by addo »

Struts are sealed with fluoropolymer seals. These are substantially non-compliant, meaning that wear is not taken up by a garter-like constriction of the seal. Also, sliding friction of the seal face against the ram, is not a design element and will be minimal in terms of service loads.

As Xac points out, loss of tolerance in this sealing area will result in a significant leak. A Xantia/BX/XM strut is sleeved in an outer tube (to which the leakoff pipe is clamped) - measuring leakage rates under static load will give a clue as to seal condition. However, were significant leaks to develop in service the leakoff tubes would simply fail.

Damping washers on spheres can and do fatigue; being steel they crack - this will not introduce flakes of metal into the system but will reduce effect of damping. I would suggest the strut feed is where losses accumulate; low regulated pressure, wear to antisink valves, wear to Hydractive solenoids, possibly diversion of already-low pressure to a worn steering pinion (for example).
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Re: I want a DS5!

Post by DickieG »

addo wrote:Struts are sealed with fluoropolymer seals. These are substantially non-compliant, meaning that wear is not taken up by a garter-like constriction of the seal. Also, sliding friction of the seal face against the ram, is not a design element and will be minimal in terms of service loads.

As Xac points out, loss of tolerance in this sealing area will result in a significant leak. A Xantia/BX/XM strut is sleeved in an outer tube (to which the leakoff pipe is clamped) - measuring leakage rates under static load will give a clue as to seal condition. However, were significant leaks to develop in service the leakoff tubes would simply fail.
Eventually,,,,,, but until the leak becomes sufficiently excessive to blow the return pipe off it will be behaving rather similar to a worn shock absorber that isn't leaking externally.
addo wrote:Damping washers on spheres can and do fatigue; being steel they crack - this will not introduce flakes of metal into the system but will reduce effect of damping.
Yep, had that on the sphere's supplied to me by Westroen for the rear of my Activa, totally foxed me as to what was going on then Jim as well for some time after her bought the car from me, not good.
Xac wrote:Except a sphere that is so low it restricts suspension movement to the level that it cannot follow the contours of a road it is well past it's replacement date.
Unless a sphere is fully charged with nitrogen and the membrane suddenly ruptures the degradation in sphere pressure is very gradual but it is there and restricting suspension movement, so unless the driver has another similar car to compare it with directly or regularly removes sphere's to check their pressure, suspension movement will be reduced without the driver being aware of the "issues" around that. This is similar to the wear situation with shock absorbers on a steel sprung car allowing greater oscillation movement, neither situations are ideal but its what happens in reality.

When buying a second hand hydraulic Citroen you almost certainly have to factor in the cost of a new set of spheres because the general public drive them beyond their designed service life resulting in car handing being compromised. Neither suspension system is perfect but to suggest that Hydraulic Citroens don't have a problem in this department is at the very least misleading.
Xac wrote:Come on Richard, you said BMW's don't break springs so are you really knowledgeable enough to comment?
I talk from personal experience not folklore, relating tales of a friend of a friend's sisters' aunt is not my style :lol:
Xac wrote:Seriously though, perhaps that's the reason why modern cars seem more prone to snapping springs, if their dampeners are more robust then that's going to be stressing the springs more.

I'd have thought quite the opposite as a stiff damper will prevent the spring being taken to extreme expansion/contraction, reduce the number of oscillations and reduce the "shock" being delivered to the spring. The rise in spring breakages could be down to a couple of things, stiffer MOT tests where previously a broken spring was ignored especially when involved the common issue of the tip breaking off, the other factor could be that new cars having much stiffer bodyshells which causes the suspension to work harder as the shell no longer wobbles about/absorbs the shocks.
Xac wrote:Are you saying though that worn shocks don't increase stopping distances or affect the handling of a car and all the previous research into the matter is a myth?
No and nor have I suggested such a thing.
Xac wrote:If a strut wears enough to affect the dampening, then that's one hell of a leak.
Remember the flow of LHM into the strut is able to more than match the flow out around the piston, maintaining the pressure and therefore dampening.
If you believe that then you need to stop driving old bangers and try a newer/low mileage example :wink:

Pardon the pun here but I'm trying to pour oil over troubled waters and give some balance to this debate.
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Re: I want a DS5!

Post by Deanxm »

That second hand strut leg you got me Is much tighter than the old leaking one, the old one seemed to transmit a lot of road noise and made that corner rather harsh in a way like you would expect from a shock that had lost some oil, the new secondhand one was much quieter in comparison.
Citroen's hydraulic suspension runs from two extreams, it can be very good, more so than a conventional suspension setup in some respects but ride and handling degrade and severly compromise safety much quicker and to much greater extent than any conventionaly sprung car, there is no arguement here, drive an unmaintained 100k steel sprung car and all will be well, drive an unmaintained hydraulic citroen and the exerience would be akin to being dragged down the road on your face.

Springs do break in all cars, this i believe is down to manufacturing or matirial quality and i personaly have known a few to go on vauxhalls, one beemer i owned and lots of Fiats but in most cases this was due to high wear or damage inflicted on the vehicles although i cannot be sure but given the numbers of cars on the road it is extreemly unlikely to happen.

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Post by addo »

Coil springs break because the engineering metallurgy is too marginal for real world conditions in some countries! It's all but unknown here; seriously I have not seen one newer car with a busted coil. Plenty of shagged MacStruts, for sure.
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Re: I want a DS5!

Post by Deanxm »

I think most are due to damage to be honest, although in the case of some Fiats im not so sure.

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Post by addo »

You need to come here and drive our roads. Damage - were it the primary cause - would result in broken springs for us, too.

It's more about deep corrosion and cold. The lessons of ships failing due to poor steel choice, have been all but forgotten by car parts suppliers.
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Re: I want a DS5!

Post by Deanxm »

Fatigue, especialy in cold weather is a good point, one of the aggrigate ships that runs to our wharf went down this winter in the irish sea, broke its back in rough weather................

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Post by ashy90 »

addo wrote: It's all but unknown here; seriously I have not seen one newer car with a busted coil.
Yet, over here in the UK, pretty much every case of snapped/broken coil springs I have known of, have all been on very young/new cars. The only old car I have known the springs to go on would be my dads Mondeo.
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Re: I want a DS5!

Post by Peter.N. »

I never heard of springs breaking until recently. The last one I had break was a rear leaf spring on a Vauxhall Cresta in the '50s, I took it into a garage in St Austell and they fitted a new one while I walked round the shops - total bill £4.00, those were the days :cry:

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Re: I want a DS5!

Post by DickieG »

Peter.N. wrote:I never heard of springs breaking until recently. The last one I had break was a rear leaf spring on a Vauxhall Cresta in the '50s, I took it into a garage in St Austell and they fitted a new one while I walked round the shops - total bill £4.00, those were the days :cry:
What was the weekly wage in those days, £2? :lol:

A mate of mine had a Marina Coupe' TC and decided to do a wheelspin in front of a group of mates, result; one broken leaf spring and rather a lot of banter directed towards him :twisted: :lol:
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Re: I want a DS5!

Post by Peter.N. »

That's what did it on the Cresta, big 6 cylinder engine (60.5 bhp), if you hit a drain cover when wet with your foot down the wheel would spin and then come to an abrupt stop when it got to the road again which wound the spring up.

I think I must have been earning nearly a tenner a week by then. :shock:

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