I want a DS5!

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Re: I want a DS5!

Post by ashy90 »

Xac wrote: Other than a superior ride quility, hydraulic suspension still gives you proper dampening even if the spheres need changing,
Urrrrm, thats not right, surely? When the spheres went on the in-laws Xantia, the ride was so bad it was practicaly undrivable.
Xac wrote: How many steel sprung cars that aren't very old have we heard about springs snapping on?
There seem to be the select few cars or manufacturers that suffer with snapped springs. Ford - particularly the Mondeo's, but Focus and KA's also seem to suffer. Fiat - particularly the Grande Punto. BMW's, Audi's, the Rover 75 (which is the Rover that had BMW input ironicly) and the Vauxhall Vectra (2002 onwards). Other than that, I wouldnt say snapped springs are THAT common.
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Re: I want a DS5!

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Xac wrote: When spheres get old the suspension gets firmer while when conventional shocks get old the suspension gets softer and more wooly.
DickieG wrote:True but therein lies the problem, conventional suspension will continue to perform for many years after it's passed it best, hydraulic suspension doesn't and can leave you stranded at the side of the road, been there had that :evil:
I would have to agree with this. In the last 2 years my in-laws Xantia has been off the road on two seperate occasions due to suspension problems - both times the car was completely undrivable. Since I have owned my current car, 3 years, not a single time has it been off road due to suspension faults. My car is a convetionally sprung Rover 45 - its in its 12th year, and has 150k on the clock, and apart from the rear trailing arm bushes, everything suspension wise is original.

DickieG wrote: I do wonder if French car manufacturers are using sub standard quality steel in their springs, loads of tales of PSA and Renault springs snapping but I can't say I've ever heard of one breaking on a BMW and I have vast experience of those being driven under the harshest of conditions.
You being serious? I have known 2 people personally that have had broken springs on their BMW. One quite recently - my boss at works 330 Coupe has just required 2 new rear springs. I understand it is fairly common.
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Re: I want a DS5!

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ashy90 wrote:
Xac wrote: Other than a superior ride quility, hydraulic suspension still gives you proper dampening even if the spheres need changing,
Urrrrm, thats not right, surely? When the spheres went on the in-laws Xantia, the ride was so bad it was practically undrivable.
The dampening is performed by the discs in the sphere hole, they take a very long time to wear to a point where they no longer dampen.
A sprung car can have totally shot shocks, nose dive, seriously increased stopping distance, swerving when braking, swerving in low winds, rock and roll down the road, and many drivers won't realise something is wrong.
As spheres get old and the pressure drops, the dampening remains the same, your suspension gets stiffer which isn't detrimental to road handling and stopping.
If your in-law's Xantia was that bad to drive it was well past when the spheres needed changing!
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Re: I want a DS5!

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ashy90 wrote:
DickieG wrote: I do wonder if French car manufacturers are using sub standard quality steel in their springs, loads of tales of PSA and Renault springs snapping but I can't say I've ever heard of one breaking on a BMW and I have vast experience of those being driven under the harshest of conditions.
You being serious?
Yes I am, other than the tales on this thread I've not heard of a BMW suffering this problem yet I've driven literally dozens of them and known of what must be in the hundreds of them at work where they are used in the harshest of conditions, never seen or heard of a spring breaking with any of them. Rear suspension airbag system on E39 estates yes, springs, no.
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Re: I want a DS5!

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DickieG wrote: Yes I am, other than the tales on this thread I've not heard of a BMW suffering this problem yet I've driven literally dozens of them and known of what must be in the hundreds of them at work where they are used in the harshest of conditions, never seen or heard of a spring breaking with any of them. Rear suspension airbag system on E39 estates yes, springs, no.
Do the Police not have modified suspension in their cars like they do on their bikes Richard?
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Re: I want a DS5!

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Xac wrote:
DickieG wrote: Yes I am, other than the tales on this thread I've not heard of a BMW suffering this problem yet I've driven literally dozens of them and known of what must be in the hundreds of them at work where they are used in the harshest of conditions, never seen or heard of a spring breaking with any of them. Rear suspension airbag system on E39 estates yes, springs, no.
Do the Police not have modified suspension in their cars like they do on their bikes Richard?
On some but not the ones I'm talking about.
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Re: I want a DS5!

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Xac wrote:
ashy90 wrote:
Xac wrote: Other than a superior ride quility, hydraulic suspension still gives you proper dampening even if the spheres need changing,
Urrrrm, thats not right, surely? When the spheres went on the in-laws Xantia, the ride was so bad it was practically undrivable.
The dampening is performed by the discs in the sphere hole, they take a very long time to wear to a point where they no longer dampen.
A sprung car can have totally shot shocks, nose dive, seriously increased stopping distance, swerving when braking, swerving in low winds, rock and roll down the road, and many drivers won't realise something is wrong.
As spheres get old and the pressure drops, the dampening remains the same, your suspension gets stiffer which isn't detrimental to road handling and stopping.
If your in-law's Xantia was that bad to drive it was well past when the spheres needed changing!

Either way, a normally sprung car, can have 'dampers' which are worn past their best, and the car is still totally drivable. You make out that a car with worn dampers is a death trap, when in reality most cars with 'aged' dampers are still safe. I mean mine on its original suspension at 12 years old and 150k miles still brakes straight, can cruise at speed and feels perfectly safe. Sure they are past their best, and I am sure if I put new dampers on it then it would transform it, however its certainly not unsafe.

The spheres on my in-laws Xantia where about 4 or 5 years old. The car was off road for about a week due to an electrical fault, and when they went to take it to the garage to get the fault sorted, the suspension had gone too. Bouncing all over the road.
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Re: I want a DS5!

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When either spheres or dampers wear they both get worse to drive but both take a long time to become unsafe. When dampers are *completely* gone that respective car will be bouncing all over the road too.
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Re: I want a DS5!

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ashy90 wrote: Either way, a normally sprung car, can have 'dampers' which are worn past their best, and the car is still totally drivable. You make out that a car with worn dampers is a death trap, when in reality most cars with 'aged' dampers are still safe. I mean mine on its original suspension at 12 years old and 150k miles still brakes straight, can cruise at speed and feels perfectly safe. Sure they are past their best, and I am sure if I put new dampers on it then it would transform it, however its certainly not unsafe.

The spheres on my in-laws Xantia where about 4 or 5 years old. The car was off road for about a week due to an electrical fault, and when they went to take it to the garage to get the fault sorted, the suspension had gone too. Bouncing all over the road.
A car with worn dampers is a death trap waiting to happen, with increased stopping distances and, as with a car I had, lurching to the side when you brake due to one side being more worn than the other. It's made worse because if you don't know about suspension, as most people don't, you have no idea how dangerous the car is or even that something needs changing.
Your in-laws car proves my point about spheres (assuming that the harsh ride was caused by flat/split spheres and not a seized height corrector linkage from being laid up for a week, or an electrovalve problem putting it into hard mode), as spheres don't go from being properly inflated to flat in a week, so for months before, the spheres needed changing but still performed their job, still dampened properly, still stopped properly, still didn't lurch under braking.
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Re: I want a DS5!

Post by Dommo »

I don't think the hydropneumatic principle is at all out dated, it's just the design used in our cars (besides hydractive and VSX) is 57 year old technology.

Just look at the suspension in my active Soarer, it's similar to citroen, only they took it to the next level. Also look at the latest McLaren MP4-12C, the big thing about that car is the ride quality (and amazing handling), the principles of both these cars are very Citroen, only taken to the next stage in development.

http://www.autozine.org/technical_schoo ... nsion3.htm

Read it all if you get chance, it's very interesting! If not, scroll down to the "Tenneco Kinetic Suspension" section, that's how the new McLaren works, you can see it's very Citroen, but better.


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Re: I want a DS5!

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Jabo wrote:When dampers are *completely* gone that respective car will be bouncing all over the road too.
Agreed. Completely being the important word.
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Re: I want a DS5!

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Xac wrote:
ashy90 wrote: Either way, a normally sprung car, can have 'dampers' which are worn past their best, and the car is still totally drivable. You make out that a car with worn dampers is a death trap, when in reality most cars with 'aged' dampers are still safe. I mean mine on its original suspension at 12 years old and 150k miles still brakes straight, can cruise at speed and feels perfectly safe. Sure they are past their best, and I am sure if I put new dampers on it then it would transform it, however its certainly not unsafe.

The spheres on my in-laws Xantia where about 4 or 5 years old. The car was off road for about a week due to an electrical fault, and when they went to take it to the garage to get the fault sorted, the suspension had gone too. Bouncing all over the road.
A car with worn dampers is a death trap waiting to happen.
Not quite sure how to answer that to be honest! I done a lot of research on dampers when I was at college. It is reckoned on average, on the average car on our roads, that dampers degrade or wear by 10% every 20k miles. The dampers on most cars are WORN - even on cars that are just 2 or 3 years old. However, are they worn 'out' or dangerous death traps? I don't think so.

I agree that completely worn out knackered dampers are dangerous - just like completely worn out knackered spheres are.
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Re: I want a DS5!

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I do not have anything against hydro - Citroens, infact it is completely the opposite, I am quite fascinated by them. However it seems that there are a few people on here that dare I say it are some what blinkered, and cannot seem to accept that any car other than one with hydro pneumatic suspension can possibly be any good, and must be a death trap.
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Re: I want a DS5!

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ashy90 wrote: Not quite sure how to answer that to be honest! I done a lot of research on dampers when I was at college. It is reckoned on average, on the average car on our roads, that dampers degrade or wear by 10% every 20k miles. The dampers on most cars are WORN - even on cars that are just 2 or 3 years old. However, are they worn 'out' or dangerous death traps? I don't think so.

I agree that completely worn out knackered dampers are dangerous - just like completely worn out knackered spheres are.
I don't understand if you've done so much research you found that stiffer suspension makes a car dangerous, VSX and Activa drivers best watch out ;)
Can you share the physics behind it?
From that research you'd know that as dampening ability decreases stopping distance increases and handling decreases. Just as with ineffective brakes or worn (including still legal) tyres can increase stopping distance and increase the likelihood of you rear ending someone or worse, running someone over.
Due to the way spheres handle dampening, through the life of a sphere the dampening isn't affected.
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Re: I want a DS5!

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Xac wrote:
ashy90 wrote: Not quite sure how to answer that to be honest! I done a lot of research on dampers when I was at college. It is reckoned on average, on the average car on our roads, that dampers degrade or wear by 10% every 20k miles. The dampers on most cars are WORN - even on cars that are just 2 or 3 years old. However, are they worn 'out' or dangerous death traps? I don't think so.

I agree that completely worn out knackered dampers are dangerous - just like completely worn out knackered spheres are.
I don't understand if you've done so much research you found that stiffer suspension makes a car dangerous, VSX and Activa drivers best watch out ;)
Can you share the physics behind it?

From that research you'd know that as dampening ability decreases stopping distance increases and handling decreases. Just as with ineffective brakes or worn (including still legal) tyres can increase stopping distance and increase the likelihood of you rear ending someone or worse, running someone over.
Due to the way spheres handle dampening, through the life of a sphere the dampening isn't affected.
I don't understand what you mean with your frist statement/question (?) Where did I mention anything about stiffness of suspension? :?

Yes, I completely agree with your second statement. However, as per my other post, are you saying that virtually all cars on the road, including mine, are dangerous death traps?

From the moment a brand new car starts being driven, or brand new dampers on a car are fitted and the car is driven, it is 'wearing' all the time - with every drive. Very slowly, over a long period of time, the dampening becomes less effective - perhaps degrading by approx 10% every 20k miles or so. This does NOT mean that the car is dangerous after only 20k miles, does it?
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