Warm/Hot starting Issue C5 2.0 HDi 8v

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Geoff Lebowski
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Warm/Hot starting Issue C5 2.0 HDi 8v

Post by Geoff Lebowski »

Hi Everyone,
I\'m hoping you can shed some light on my problem (well, my automotive problem anyway...............!)

In a nutshell: The car was requiring more cranking to start and required several attempts in the very cold weather. Glow plugs thought I!
However, upon returning from a long (150 mile) run, I had to move the car after a couple of minutes rest on the drive. After several failed attempts at starting (i.e. releasing the starter just as the engine seems to fire) it eventually did start but in a fashion that I would describe on 2 cylinders - or, if feeling fanciful, it\'s as if the whole engine was running in the wrong firing order. It was a very harsh/snappy \'idle\' that lasted about 5 seconds and was unresponsive to throttle input.
After a few minutes left alone, the car eventually fired up normally and ran normally as if nothing was wrong.

The following day I replaced all the glowplugs with new ones and found that two of the ones I removed were dead.
Cold starting doesn\'t seem improved but at the sort of temps we have had recently (i.e. 5+deg) the plugs are hardly used (if at all) so only a cold snap will tell if cold start has improved.

However, the warm/hot reluctant starting and brief snappy idle problem remains at a seemingly intermittent/random \'pattern\'.

I have tried the following in an attempt to rectify/investigate.
Disconnect coolant temp sensor
Give direct air feed to engine (i.e. no air filter)(air filter clean and good any way)
Disconnect MAF sensor connector on top of air filter
.....but to no avail.
At one point I had to bump start the car down the hill which failed at first but then succeeded.

This short snappy idle has been evident during the year we\'ve had the car, but only very sporadically and almost always when after we\'ve stalled the car mid manouvre. Normally it would only take another turn of the key to start and run normally. Evidently this problem is getting worse and seemingly quite quickly.

Once running, it runs faultlessly.

Could the EGR valve be involved with this possibly?
Any help much appreciated before I bin the car and switch to something Japanese!
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Re: Warm/Hot starting Issue C5 2.0 HDi 8v

Post by myglaren »

Geoff!
I would recommend that you have a diagnostic run on the car to try and pinpoint the possibilities for the problem.

Have a look on the map and see who is close to you and PM them to arrange a reading.
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Re: Warm/Hot starting Issue C5 2.0 HDi 8v

Post by RichardW »

I'd go with Steve - need to get some decent diagnostics that can read live data - you need to read the fuel rail pressure. It needs to be 120 bar before it will fire, and should be 297 bar at idle. My guess is you will find it's lower than this, could be due to the fuel pressure regulator on the pump, the fuel pressure sensor, or a cracked injector.
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Re: Warm/Hot starting Issue C5 2.0 HDi 8v

Post by Geoff Lebowski »

Cracked injector!? Crikey - that\'s all I need!

I\'ll have another look this afternoon as the Mrs finishes early today. I suppose low pressure might explain the lumpy running i.e. only two or 3 injectors opening, the remaining one(s) requiring just that higher pressure maybe?

My only other thought was not enough ooomph to get a decent vacuum from the pump, and so not closing/opening the EGR (forgive me here, but I\'m not clued up on the EGR and the whole vac circuit thing) and/or opening that valve/flap in the turbo pressure side of the inlet. I only wonder this as whilst she started without lump idle this morning, she took 2-3 seconds of cranking. Doesn\'t sound much I know but historically she (and an otherwise sound diesel) only needs 1/2 second of cranking to fire.

I shall also find my local code reader and bribe suitably with a bottle of red!

thank you for your help chaps
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Re: Warm/Hot starting Issue C5 2.0 HDi 8v

Post by Geoff Lebowski »

Steve - as I\'m on the poxy Proxy your map linky takes me back to the proxyserver page. Would you mind telling me where it is on the site and I\'ll track it down. Sorry to be a pain
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Re: Warm/Hot starting Issue C5 2.0 HDi 8v

Post by myglaren »

It is in the "Frequently Recurring Questions" forum under "Lexia Locations.

I suspect that you may have the same problem there so I will email a link to you.
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Re: Warm/Hot starting Issue C5 2.0 HDi 8v

Post by Geoff Lebowski »

You were right Steve and thanks for the email with linky. No one has Lexia in Wales! Are Citro-philes sheep-o-phobic?

Anyway, I now have cause to visit Chester and was wondering if there was anyone close enough willing to do a Lexia session for some £££ or glug glug glug?

As an aside (and secretly hoping this would shed light on the problem): Last night, about 3hrs after Mrs L returns from her 10 minute drive from work, I need to go out. Take the C5 says I. She wouldn\'t start - not for all the tea in China. By the time I had finished, the starter was barely turning over.

This morning, thinking the battery would still be flat, she fired into life better than ever! Not only did the starter sound nice and lively, but she started without hesitation or problem.

I\'ve developed a theory I\'d like advice on please! As well as a pressure regulator (is this a pressure relief valve?) what is responsible for providing the pressure required for injection (specifically during start up). There is a tank residing electrical pump right? But isn\'t that low pressure? Is it the mechanical pump responsible for high pressure injection?

My theory is: The starter motor was making a \'dry bearing\' noise and has been since we had the car. I\'m curious as to wether this was causing the car to labour during starting - thus giving a more-or-less random slow cranking situation and thus reduced injection pressure when starting???
I only mention it as not only did the starter motor sound surprisingly spritely this morning (despite me using quite a bit of juice from the battery last night) but it didn\'t make the dry bearing sound?! I\'m wondering if my persistance (dare I say it frustration) caused the starter to get hot again and \'reflowed\' some bearing grease???????? Of course only time will tell but it may just point me in the right direction for some remedial work and save both myself and my unsuspecting volunteer some unneccesary Lexia work???

Please don\'t be afraid to shoot my theory down in flames - it\'s just ideas!

cheers for now
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Re: Warm/Hot starting Issue C5 2.0 HDi 8v

Post by DickieG »

Generally speaking if an HDi has a low fuel pressure problem, when the engine is turned off there will be a slight delay before it actually stops.
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Re: Warm/Hot starting Issue C5 2.0 HDi 8v

Post by HDI »

I have a similar problem with my Xantia HDi, I have determined it's the throttle position sensor. You will find that the cable from the throttle pedal is connected to a rotary control, which I don't know the location of on a C5. When I disconnect and reattach the wiring plug on my TPS it behaves itself for a few months then needs the same again. Yes, I know I should replace it but it's about £45 and a hassle to get to !!
Now using '00 Xantia LX HDI, pov spec :(
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Re: Warm/Hot starting Issue C5 2.0 HDi 8v

Post by Geoff Lebowski »

Hmmm that\'s interesting DickieG. It does indeed have a slight pause - even the revs rise just a fraction before it cuts off.

So far though, with my \'automatic bearing re-greasing system\' on the starter motor - it seems to run sweet as a nut. I\'ll have to see how she blows over the next week or so.

thanks HDi, I\'ll look at that if the problem returns.


Long live the humble BX.....................
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Re: Warm/Hot starting Issue C5 2.0 HDi 8v

Post by citroenxm »

You know I have a Lexia Geoff.. if we are speaking.. :oops:
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
M reg Xm 2.1 td auto exclusive S2 269k and rising
L reg XM V6 12v SEi auto .. Light project

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1994 XM 2.1 d auto
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Re: Warm/Hot starting Issue C5 2.0 HDi 8v

Post by Geoff Lebowski »

Did I just say \'Long live the humble BX\'? Shoot me if a couple of hours later if she doesn\'t burst a high pressure pipe!

Of course we\'re speaking Paul - twas all sorted in the end!
I may take you up on that - although for the right price you can take her on, fix her and sell it if you\'re so inclined. She behaved perfectly this morning when cold and hot but nearly left Mrs L stranded in Cardiff last night. So she\'s losing faith and want sto move on. I\'ll list her in the for sale section. You about on the 10th/11th March Paul? I have to come up to Chester so it\'s a short dap over to Anglesey isn\'t it?
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Re: Warm/Hot starting Issue C5 2.0 HDi 8v

Post by citroenxm »

hi geoff..

yes i should be about then im sure... i dont think we have anything set for then.. its april thats lookin busy
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
M reg Xm 2.1 td auto exclusive S2 269k and rising
L reg XM V6 12v SEi auto .. Light project

A very sad...
1994 XM 2.1 d auto
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