Bosch pump onto 2.1 Xantia

[scr8pdo]

Hi guys, as ome of you know from my other posts, I have just aquired a 1997 1.9 TD Xantia almost identical to my car which is the same colour, year, spec etc but a 2.1 with the Lucas/epic pump, I still havent picked the car up yet, (1.9 td) but my main concern was running on WVO, as I mentioned my 2.1 is in great condidtion apart from it does need a few jobs ie, spheres all-round, maybe a set of pads on the back, a few tyres and a passenger door (not criticle) but anyways if I was in a better state of health than at the moment (iam on crutches for a while) I would of chopped all the good bits off the 1.9 and done my 2.1 up, my main concern is being able to run on WVO which iam told the Lucas pump will not like, my question is if I decide to convert the 2.1 to a Bosch off the 1.9, what is involved?

I trust that the 1.9 is going to definatly have a Bosch pump?

If so what is involved from start to finish? Is it a straight swap over, will the mounts, pipes all be the same, what about keypads, will the 1.9td have one on it, if so will I need to chop all this over, and in a nutshell, is it a lot of work? iam a competant mechanic but have never done this conversion, I know that I will need to swap throttle pedals, cable etc but what else, will I need the 1.9 injectors for example?

I know this conversion has been done before, some have said its a piece of cake, others have told me different, I just need a bit of an outline so I can decide what to do, either keep the 2.1 running or use the 1.9 with the new spheres etc, any hel;p would be great, kind regards Steve

[CitroJim]

Yes, the 1.9 is almost 100% certain to have a Bosch pump but....

I'll come back to that but in a little while...

Basically, you need to swap the pump, injectors and injector pipes and the drive sprocket which means timing belt off. Also, you need to move the mounting studs in the pump cradle to the 'Bosch' position and then arrange for a 12v feed to the stop solenoid and arrange a new throttle cable as the Lucas EPIC is fly by wire and it's throttle cable ends under the airbox where it drives a pot. Finally you need to employ a dial gauge to get the static timing correct as there is no reference marks to help you on a 2.1 as the later ones were never designed for that pump.

Also, you need to arrange for fast idle when cold and all this is done very differently on a Bosch than on an all-electronic Lucas. The conversion really demands the use of the fully mechanical Bosch VP20 pump that was fitted to Xantias pre-1996

The 'but' with using a 1997 1.9TD is that it hasn't got a VP20 but the later AS3 semi-electronic pump. These look more or less identical but they rely on being paired with an ECU for timing control. Without the ECU the pump sits fully retarded and won't work at all well anywhere.

The ECU for the AS3 and EPIC are totally different and even use different connectors, wiring looms and ECU boxes. To transplant an AS3 into an EPIC 2.1 would in all honesty be an epic (pardon the pun) job and to my mind never worth all the effort involved. You'd also need to transfer across the vacuum operated fast idle arrangements.

I'm not sure the instruments are even compatible as on the 2.1TD the engine ECU drives the tacho and the water temperature gauge. Not the case with the 1.9TD so you may have to do a lot of other work besides to get everything working again. Also the ECU controls the authority for the AC compressor to run. More work is likely needed to make that work again.

For the effort involved and the fact that replacing an EPIC, which is an absolutely excellent pump for power, economy and emissions, with an inferior pump that can run veg it's just not worth it in my opinion.

Sorry.

[Xaccers]

Bosch and inferior pump? Pah!

[scr8pdo]

Thanks for the advice Jim, so even if I decide to keep the 1.9 as is, could I not adjust the pump as on the earlier cars like the pug 306 to get a bit more poke or is that later 1.9 pump totally electronically controlled and non (tweakable)

I would carry on with the 2.1, but the whole point of me having a cheap diesel was to use the abundant supply of WVO I can have, I know the 2.1 has more power, torque etc and the car really goes well but I bought the car to use veg oil with which I can not with that pump, plus iam getting the hump (or bump) lol with these knackered spheres, I dream of a correct operating suspension Xantia, so if that is the case with them pumps it looks like I will be using the 1.9 as is with a few bits swapped over, all the best Ste

[Xaccers]

The semi-electric (as we call it) fitted to later 1.9TDs is as tweakable as the earlier version.
Pop the cover off the top of the UFO, undo the 15mm lock nut, screw the T27 down 2 or 3 times, tighten up and go for a spin.

[citroenxm]

If you thinking about an EPIC 2.1... FORGET it completely!!! Get a 2.0 HDi! All you need to do then is stick a tuning box on! get 20bhp... and STILL get 45mpg with a boot full of tools!!

PERFECT.. How do I know, because thats my car! ...

I cant see the time wasted in cleaning up the WVO as well as storage space is worth it for the extra MPG and BETTER performace you get from the HDi.. and they are NOT unreliable as some XUD die hards may have you think!

[jgra1]

As you already have the 2.1 and the 1.9, Still sounds like keeping the 1.9 and wvo'ing as I and others do, and selling the 2.1 ?

J

[Xaccers]

If you thinking about an EPIC 2.1... FORGET it completely!!! Get a 2.0 HDi! All you need to do then is stick a tuning box on! get 20bhp... and STILL get 45mpg with a boot full of tools!!

PERFECT.. How do I know, because thats my car! ...

I cant see the time wasted in cleaning up the WVO as well as storage space is worth it for the extra MPG and BETTER performace you get from the HDi.. and they are NOT unreliable as some XUD die hards may have you think!

Having now driven several 1.9TDs, a 2.1TD (Dex) and Jim's 110HDi, I will definitely be sticking with 1.9TD's.
Dex was flat like a 90hdi, while Rattiva2 is more like Cassy, it's just not got the right sort of ooomph.
Plus with being able to run on veg, Cassy is still cheaper on fuel per mile than the 110hdi, and using WVO it'd be even more so.

[citroenxm]

BOLLOCKS Xac.... How can a 1.9ts be like a HDi 110.... They just do not touch in the performance ranks! A HDi 110 is FAR FAR from flat too...

All I said anyway was I cannot see the gains with all the messing around with cleaning the WVO up and storing it too, and needing the time to filter it, I just havent got it.. So it has to be a HDi for the best payoff of ecomomy and startling performance with the tuning box fitted that doesnt affect the economy..

[jgra1]

I know Paul, but poor scra8pdo already has 2 xants, and wants to go the WVO route .. unless he chops them both in to buy and Hdi ...

(say's me, who has no filtered WVO left and needs to sort that like in 15 mins time during lunch!)

[Xaccers]

BOLLOCKS Xac.... How can a 1.9ts be like a HDi 110.... They just do not touch in the performance ranks! A HDi 110 is FAR FAR from flat too...

All I said anyway was I cannot see the gains with all the messing around with cleaning the WVO up and storing it too, and needing the time to filter it, I just havent got it.. So it has to be a HDi for the best payoff of ecomomy and startling performance with the tuning box fitted that doesnt affect the economy..

I didn't say the 110 hdi was flat (although I found the 90hdi to be flatter than a pancake), I said it had the wrong sort of ooomph, closer to a 1.9TD than the 2.1TD, but still not quite all the way there.
As you know, I use SVO, so just pour it in and go, still works out cheaper than a 110hdi per mile.

Don't get me wrong, if there were no 1.9TDs left, then I'd definitely get a 110hdi, to use as a backup car to the Laguna II I'd get as a daily driver (except when it's broken).

[scr8pdo]

The whole point of me getting a Xantia was to run as cheap as possible, I not bothered about performance, Ive got a 300 BHP T5 for that, it was just to save some money as I can get abundant ammounts of WVO and cheap SVO, the 2.1 TD has a lot of low down torque compared to a previous Xantia I had a while back (1.9 NA), I also had a lovely 406 1.9 TD and went all over the place in it, it went fine on the motorways, ok it was no rocket but could keep up with the traffic so I assume the 1.9td Xantia would be adequate for what I want?

[Xaccers]

It'd be perfect

[scr8pdo]

Thanks for advice guys, what Iam going to do is go and collect the 1.9 tomorrow mid dayish, then I have to move fast and decide what to do, either way, one of the cars will be either scrapped or sold tomorrow or Wednesday as I will need the space, is there anything I should specifically look out for on the 1.9? Do they have any weak points, I know that the 2.1 is mechnically sound except for the spheres, and maybe a set of pads, still tested til September, will need a couple of tyres soon, I just got the hump with it now, bouncing all over the gaff, if I do decide to keep the 2.1 are the spheres interchangable?

All the best Ste

[CitroJim]

Biggest thing to check on a 1.9TD specifically is the cooling system. Check in the header tank and see good clear anti-freeze laden coolant at the right level. beware if it is low, sludgy, opaque with rust or obviously just plain water.

Start up from cold with the cap on and feel the top hose. If it goes hard rapidly then you have impeding HG failure. This can be confirmed by looking for streams of bubbles in the header tank.

Bad cooling on a 1.9TD will get the head gasket sooner or later.

Check the thermostat works properly, check the rad is in good nick and warm all over when the 'stat does open and check that if felt long enough the cooling fans cut in as expected.

Apart from that, they're pretty bombproof really. Finally, check for leaks from the injection pump.

And then on to all the normal Xantia weak points such as strut tops and rust in the rear sills as seen through the rear door openings on the lap joint.

If you do have this car, swap the cambelt and water pump at first opportunity as a bust belt is a bit of a showstopper on the 1.9, much moreso than the 2.1 or HDi...