Hi Regan, yes the 'box does need to be drained to get the valve block out. It's a difficult job as there's not much space to work in.
It's worth looking over the valve block in case there's a broken valve spring the may have caused two clutches to engage simultaneously and cause the bang/lockup.
Proper LT71141 looks a deep amber and not unlike fresh low-viscosity engine oil but a shade or so. It smells revolting - like cat's pee.
No option really but to have the 'box out and strip it.
C5 HP20 causing grief
Moderator: RichardW
- CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 49531
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- Location: Paggers
- My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
- x 6160
- Contact:
Re: C5 HP20 causing grief
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
- mongoose100
- Posts: 206
- Joined: 18 Nov 2010, 08:33
- Location: Wellington, New Zealand
- My Cars:
Re: C5 HP20 causing grief
Hmmm well the sample I took out didn't smell like pee, and it looked like I'd taken the engines sump plug out, black with a slight red tinge
Is there concrete evidence that D3 will kill the HP20's in a short amount of time? Need as much ammo as I can before I take it up with "specialist"
Is there concrete evidence that D3 will kill the HP20's in a short amount of time? Need as much ammo as I can before I take it up with "specialist"
Regan.
2001 Citroën C5 V6
1994 Citroën Xantia 1.9TD
2001 Citroën C5 V6
1994 Citroën Xantia 1.9TD
- CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 49531
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- Location: Paggers
- My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
- x 6160
- Contact:
Re: C5 HP20 causing grief
Did the sample smell burned Regan?
That it's dark and only tinged with red suggests that it's either been very hot or has plenty of debris from clutches or bearings suspended in it.
No concrete evidence that Dexron kills them but in use it will shorten their life considerably and I don't believe, comparing Dexron and LT that Dexron has the same lubricity properties and I reckon this might lead to bearing failure if it runs with Dexron for too long.
Trouble is, I've stripped a couple that have been filled with the red stuff but i cannot know for how long they'd been running on it. Similarly I've stripped one that ran on LT and that was pretty wrecked too...
That it's dark and only tinged with red suggests that it's either been very hot or has plenty of debris from clutches or bearings suspended in it.
No concrete evidence that Dexron kills them but in use it will shorten their life considerably and I don't believe, comparing Dexron and LT that Dexron has the same lubricity properties and I reckon this might lead to bearing failure if it runs with Dexron for too long.
Trouble is, I've stripped a couple that have been filled with the red stuff but i cannot know for how long they'd been running on it. Similarly I've stripped one that ran on LT and that was pretty wrecked too...
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
- xantia_v6
- Forum Admin Team
- Posts: 9053
- Joined: 09 Nov 2005, 22:03
- Location: France or NewZealand
- Lexia Available: Yes
- My Cars: -
1997 Citroen Xantia V6 (France)
1999 Citroen XM V6 ES9 (France)
2011 Peugeot 308 CC THP 155 (NZ)
1975 Jaguar XJ-S pre-HE (NZ) - x 825
Re: C5 HP20 causing grief
It seems that the typical failures are due to lack of hydraulic operating pressure, lack of lubrication, as a result of the oil filter being clogged with wear debris from the torque converter lock-up clutch.
All of the clutches in the transmission (except, confusingly, the lock-up clutch), are generally fully released or fully locked up, so they don't ware much at all (in my transmission at 150,000 miles there was no visible wear to any clutch).
The lockup clutch however is intended to slip slightly in normal operation (from memory a 5% slip) so with a 2000 RPM input, it drives the transmission at 1900 RPM. This is apparently to smooth out the power pulses from the engine, but obviously gives opportunity of the clock-up clutch to wear. I think that this is the place where correct lubricant is critical, so that the lock-up clutch can slip slightly, but be protected by the lubricant sufficiently to last for 150,000 miles or whatever the design service life is.
Once the filter gets blocked and the line pressure drops, the lock-up clutch is probably destroyed in a short time.
The apparent software glitches which cause the transmission to momentarily lock-up and discomfort to passengers do not seem to cause any mechanical damage to the transmission.
All of the clutches in the transmission (except, confusingly, the lock-up clutch), are generally fully released or fully locked up, so they don't ware much at all (in my transmission at 150,000 miles there was no visible wear to any clutch).
The lockup clutch however is intended to slip slightly in normal operation (from memory a 5% slip) so with a 2000 RPM input, it drives the transmission at 1900 RPM. This is apparently to smooth out the power pulses from the engine, but obviously gives opportunity of the clock-up clutch to wear. I think that this is the place where correct lubricant is critical, so that the lock-up clutch can slip slightly, but be protected by the lubricant sufficiently to last for 150,000 miles or whatever the design service life is.
Once the filter gets blocked and the line pressure drops, the lock-up clutch is probably destroyed in a short time.
The apparent software glitches which cause the transmission to momentarily lock-up and discomfort to passengers do not seem to cause any mechanical damage to the transmission.
- CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 49531
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- Location: Paggers
- My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
- x 6160
- Contact:
Re: C5 HP20 causing grief
I would very much concur with your words above Mike. The torque converter, by the fact it contains the lock-up clutch, is the precursor to a gearbox failure and underlines why it must be replaced as a matter of course when overhauling the gearbox.
Similar to yours Mike, the gearbox I recently rebuilt for Chris570's XM showed no clutch/brake wear after 171,000 miles.
He has a nice reconditioned TC on it.
Similar to yours Mike, the gearbox I recently rebuilt for Chris570's XM showed no clutch/brake wear after 171,000 miles.
He has a nice reconditioned TC on it.
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
- mongoose100
- Posts: 206
- Joined: 18 Nov 2010, 08:33
- Location: Wellington, New Zealand
- My Cars:
Re: C5 HP20 causing grief
Probably get shot down in flames here but whats to stop someone somehow bypassing the internal filter when its apart and putting something like a remote spin on type external filter for the box???
More hassle than its worth?
More hassle than its worth?
Regan.
2001 Citroën C5 V6
1994 Citroën Xantia 1.9TD
2001 Citroën C5 V6
1994 Citroën Xantia 1.9TD
- CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 49531
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- Location: Paggers
- My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
- x 6160
- Contact:
Re: C5 HP20 causing grief
It would be bloody difficult Regan, although not impossible...mongoose100 wrote:Probably get shot down in flames here but whats to stop someone somehow bypassing the internal filter when its apart and putting something like a remote spin on type external filter for the box???
More hassle than its worth?
The base problem is that the filter connects directly to the oil galleries leading to the pump so some clever adaptor would be needed. Also the filter is fully submerged. It may be necessary if an external device were fitted, to ensure it was always full of oil and the line between it the sump and pump was full at all times so there's never any risk of the pump pumping thin air...
Sadly, the external oil pipe that on first glance looks an excellent palkce for it is well after the filter...
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...