Xantia 2.0 Hdi Clutch Pipe Connector

[mikez12]

Does anybody know if there is a way to disconnect the blue connector which joins the two halves of the Xantia "sealed" Hydraulic clutch assembly? I'm sure I came across something somewhere about pushing up a plastic ring with screwdrivers, but now I am unable to find it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot.

[CitroJim]

Hi Mike and welcome

I've tried on a few occasions to separate that blue connector and even went to nthe trouble of trying to make a tool for the job. I could compress in the white nylon collar but even then success eluded me.

Why are you keen to disconnect it? If you do you may be in an area where you will have to bleed a sealed system that makes no provision for bleeding although there is a way...

[mikez12]

Hi Jim. Thanks. My clutch pedal went to the floor acouple of weeks ago and didn't come back up and I was unable to get any gears. Normally would have looked at it myself but It happened in Dublin and I live in Limerick about 120 miles away so figured it might be easier to give it to someone to fix. Garage rang me a couple of days later and said the clutch was gone and it would be 800 Euro to replace...ouch!! This was just before Christmas, would have cost me 300.00 to get it brought back home plus the cost of a clutch kit so I figured i'd let them at it. They rang a couple of days later saying clutch the clutch was done but now the master cylinder was knackered as well E630.00 + 23% VAT from main dealer for sealed system.

He said he had tried to get it to work by adding a piece on to the pushrod in the slave cylinder to lengthen it. I didn't like the sound of that so told him not to do any more to it and I had the car brought down the next day after paying 800.00 euro for a car which still does not work.

I have read your informative posts under the "Xantia clutch Kaputt" heading about how to bleed the sealed system but the reason I asked about seperating the blue connector was that I thought if I could find a scrapped Xantia I might be able to open the connector then remove the complete system and reinstall it in my car, joining the connector again and not having to do any bleeding. However, today I got a second hand master cylinder on its own so it looks like I will be bleeding it now i any case.

The thing that worries me now is whether the clutch has been correctly installed at all. The guy that did it said he had bled the system but still couldn't get a clutch - why was he trying to add a piece (15mm approx) on to the slave push rod? It was still there when I took the slave off today. I'm thinking maybe the cup in the fork that the pushrod goes into is too far away from the pushrod? I put an extension bar from a socket set in through the bell housing into the pushrod cup but could not get any movement even using a length of timber to lever it.

Also, if i put my fingers in through the hole and juggle the top of the fork, there is play in it of about 8-10mm. Is this normal?

Any comments or help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks a lot.

[CitroJim]

Sounds like the release bearing pulled out of the centre of your clutch Mike. That will cause the pedal to go to the floor but in doing so it normally pushes the slave cylinder apart as the piston over-travels. Luckily, the slave cylinder can be reassembled. The release bearing is held into the clutch diaphragm on a spigot and 'C' clip. Once it's in it cannot be removed or reused.

There are two critical areas to be aware of when replacing a hydraulic clutch. Firstly, the new release bearing has to be pulled into engagement with the new diaphragm spring using a special tool AFTER the gearbox is refitted to the engine; this tool is a hooked instrument that pulls on the release arm and is given a sharp tug - this pops the bearing in and engages the 'C' clip. Trouble is, you can't see it and you have to check it's properly home by feel and blind faith. I hope the garage who did yours knows this and did the job properly as to redo is a 'box off job. You can tell though by removing the slave cylinder and seeing how much movement is available on the operating lever the slave cylinder push rod operates against. If the bearing is properly engaged, there should not be much - say about 10mm. If the lever can be pulled back and forth say an inch or more then the bearing is not properly home.

The second issue is with the slave cylinder push rod. When reinstalling the slave the rod must be kept horizontal so that the end sits into the round dimple on the operating lever. What happens in practice is that the push rod falls and slips to one side of the lever and misses the dimple completely.

A new slave has a little tripod arrangement to keep it horizontal during installation and the remains of it can be often seen on an old one. Frequently the remains of the tripod can be reassembled to keep the rod level for reassembly.

Here's the remains of a tripod reassembled to hold the pushrod:



And here's the dimple the pushrod has to sit in. You can see how easy it is for the rod to slip to one side..



I'll be helping with a hydraulic clutch replacement next weekend. I'll take a bit of time to get some pictures to help explain how to do it.

I've never known a knackered master cylinder

Hopefully, all your trouble will be just a mis-installed slave Mike and even if it's apart and leaking they are easy to reassemble properly. here's am exploded picture of one...

[mikez12]

Cheers Jim. I can just about get my fingers in through the opening in the bell housing, and there is play of about 10-15mm in the lever you mention which the push rod pushes against. Hopefully this means that the bearing has engaged properly. The remains of the plastic tripod are still on my slave, so with a bit of luck I can use them to make sure the rod hits the right spot as you suggest.

When I got the car back from Dublin, I found the top of the master cylinder (where the pedal pushrod goes in to it) was seperated from the main body of the cylinder and just was just hanging on the pushrod. On removing the master cylinder I found a type of triangular spring clip, which clips inside at the top of the master and presumably stops the innards of it coming out beyond that point. However, there wasn't anything else inside except a little round piece of soft sponge and a spring. No seals and nothing which could generate any pressure. The rod had nothing at the end of it and was just pushing fresh air. It could be pulled straight out of the cylinder. The guy in Dublin obviously had it open, and did not put all the pieces back in before I collected the car. I'm pretty sure the spring that was in there was not part of the original mechanism, so why it was there is beyond me.

Out of curiosity, did you ever have one of these opened up? I'm curious as to what should have been in there - not that it makes any difference now.

Probably won't go at it again until Monday, but i'll let you know what happens.


Thanks again.

[CitroJim]

Oh dear Mike Sounds like the mechanic really butchered the master cylinder And from what you say it looks to be totally beyond repair and will need replacing. I've never had one in bits unfortunately.

It will be a bit of a devil to sort out as the master cylinder is not the easiest thing to replace, due in part to it's location and the pipe routing. I'm wondering if the best means will be to try and find a hydraulic clutched Xantia that's being broken and retrieve the whole master-pipe-slave assembly. They can be fiddled out whole but it means a lot of disassembly; LHM reservoir and so on. At least in an HDi you have a little room to play - just be thankful it's not an Activa or a 2.1TD where it is much less accessible... Either of these vehicles, irrespective of age, have the same clutch hydraulics and are potential donors.

This was all so needless. During a clutch change all this can be avoided by blocking the clutch pedal firmly up and making up a little jig to hold the slave pushrod in place when it's removed from the gearbox.

It's good news that at least the mechanic seems to have installed the clutch itself correctly

let us know how it goes...

[mikez12]

I have been at the car this weeK trying to bleed the system without success. Unfortunately, in the process I tore the rubber quad ring which seals the pipe fitting onto the slave cylinder. Does anybody have any idea where I might get a replacement or what the correct size is? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[CitroJim]

That one is a bit of a special and is not available as a replacement part so far as I know...

I can only suggest a trial with a few fat O rings.

Is the master cylinder Ok then?

[mikez12]

Hi Jim. I installed the "new" secondhand master cylinder I got from the scrapyard. As far as I can see it is working ok, but despite my attempts at bleeding I have have so far not been able to get a pedal. I have come close once or twice where there has been enough pressure so that the pedal comes up again by itself, but not sufficient to operate the clutch. I was trying to bleed it by pushing the pipe connector in and out of the slave but eventually damaged the seal. I think I will have to give your bleed nipple setup a try. Just ordered a bleed screw on ebay as i couldn't get hold of one locally, and i'll see if I can get someone to make up the brass reducer part for me.

Just heading out now to pick up some quad rings I ordered from a local engineering supplies shop. If they work I will let you know. Fingers crossed. Thanks.

[CitroJim]

Ahh, that's good Dave. It'a ll beginning to come together now

The brass reducer should not pose much of a challange to anyone with a small lathe. Rather than gong to a machine shop for this it might be just as well to see if you can find a hobbyist to do the task; a model making club is a good start, members often have lathes.

If you're careful you should be able to drill and tap the elbow for the reducer without having to disconnect the pipe from the elbow; the one difficulty is to ensure you drill and tap square so that the reducer sits square on the elbow.

[mikez12]

Hi Jim. I managed to find the right seal for the clutch pipe to slave cylinder connection. It is described on the packet as "NBR QUAD RING 5.23x2.62." I got them from a company in Limerick called Edmunds Walker. Hopefully this info might save somebody else a bit of bother. I believe the same seal is used at the pipe to master cylinder joint also. They were Euro 2.50 each which is pricey for a seal, but not compared to E630.00 + vat for a new system!!

I tried bleeding the system again once I had the seal, and this time I think I was successful. I don't want to tempt fate, but I have been driving the car today and everything seems to be fine. Hopefully it will stay that way.

Thanks a lot for all your help.

[CitroJim]

I tried bleeding the system again once I had the seal, and this time I think I was successful. I don't want to tempt fate, but I have been driving the car today and everything seems to be fine. Hopefully it will stay that way.

Excellent news Mike I'm absolutely delighted!