Engine oil additives - any not to use ?

[CitroJim]

Interesting on the flushes Chris. I have never, ever used them in the past 34 years of my motoring career... If I think an engine is a bit mucky then I'll do two or three quick changes of cheap (but in spec.) oils and filters...

[charentejohn]

Nice to see a lot of positive posts in the sense of specific uses of additives to solve a problem.
I bought my bottle of ZX1, having used it before in an older Jaguar 4.2 engine, because I was considering buying an older merc so would have used it without question. Only the negative postings on the net that made me think twice about using it on a (certainly for me) modern engine.

I will use an additive to preserve engine life and promote smoother running if available. I know regualr oil changes are all that should be needed but if I can help things along then I will do so, cost is not that important.
I know what they say, if it ain't broke then don't try to fix it, but I always think prevention is the best cure.
Never having owned a car less than 10 years old I have always added something to cars I wanted to keep. In the old days that was Wynns in the engine and Molyslip in the box and diff, things change though.

Interesting post here when I searched for chlorinated paraffin engine damage http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... er=2138420" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I also found these are used in Wynns too (<10% their site says).

I will await the response from ZX1 to see what they say.

[Citroenmad]

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[mlkey]

I will use an additive to preserve engine life and promote smoother running if available. I know regualr oil changes are all that should be needed but if I can help things along then I will do so, cost is not that important.

I would only use additives where there is an underlying issue (like my recent misfire). At the end of the day and as has previously been said, oil companies have vast research budgets. They also have to ensure their products conform to certain specifications. I don't see any such regulation (and very little independantly verified test results) with regard to the additives. In the days of "mineral oil only", perhaps there was a better argument for additives. With the advance of technology, semi synthetic and fully synthetic oils, cleaner burning engines etc, I believe additives should only be used when you are trying to "clean an engine up". This in itself carries its own risks as if you get lumps breaking away it could block any of the smaller oilways.

Thanks for starting what is an interesting thread.

[Robin]

Back after a long time away and so pleased to see the activity is still excellent. As mlkey says an interesting thread. Just to add my experience, I have for the last forty or so years used molybdenum based products in a variety of ways from shaft bearings to diesel engines both large, generally marine and small ones on everything from compressors to modern diesels.
Always with as stated a specific objective in mind.
Molybdenum products do coat bearing surfaces and as stated in an earlier response Lister used a specific running in compounded oil for new engines. I still use a similar compounded product for running up new engines today. Consider this, despite the improvement in machined surface finishes over the last four decades pits and grooves still remain in the mating surfaces. When the engine or bearing surfaces are run for the first time under load the pits and grooves can run together and increase the clearances as they bed in, this can shorten a bearing life by upto 20%. Clearly these changes in clearance at this stage are indeed microscopic and in general terms considered negligible. However in marine applications or very large engines a 10% shortening in life is major. The use of molybdenum based running in compound helps to fill in these microscopic pits and valleys therby maintaining designed running clearances for longer.
During my training in the 60's I spent a short time in an MOD engine test facility where a compressor was run on straight molybdenum compound to 'test' the manufacturers claims. It seized! Not from bearing failure but from the effect of plating which finally just closed up the running clearances.
This is why it does not pay to use molyslip in new engines unless in the manner specifically prescribed at the correct dilution rates.
As for STP, Specially Treated Petroleum' its derivatives are today found in most high quality oils so in my veiw, use the best oil you can afford, change it regularly, (my current car runs to 20k without oil change which scares me horribly but it seems ok so far at 60k miles) and all should be well.
Molyslip is excellent in older high mileage engines but I have yet to experience it in modern automotive high speed diesels.
In the past I have nursed a knocking marine diesel back to its home port on neat molyslip! Not to be recommended though.
The study of friction, lubrication and wear is called tribology - so is a grease monkey a 'tribologist'?
Seasons greetings all.

[myglaren]

Running exclusively bangers, I was always a committed user of Molyslip and STP (from seeing it used a lot on dragsters).
Haven't used any for years although I still have a can of Molyslip grease here.

Oddly enough I was reading recently of a new breed of semiconductors that use molybdenum disulphide, which motivated me to look up Molyslip to see if it was still available.
Interesting site.

I currently only ever use the recommended lubricant, unmodified, and changed at ¹/₃ to ½ of the recommended oil change frequency.

[charentejohn]

I wrote to ZX1 again asking about the Chlorinated Paraffin, what percentage mainly, but no reply so far. The arguments against this seem to hinge around a report from one main source, Opie oils/bob is the oil guy/oilman, not sure if these are all the same company / person or just quoting each other. These are reprinted and quoted by most posters on ZX1 in particular, all other evidence either way is mainly people's opinions and some personal experiences.

Mainly because they didn't reply to my last questions and not so sure of Chlorinated Paraffin in the engine for a long time I think I will use the ZX1 a few days before changing the oil, so dumping it after the change. If I understand them correctly the material in ZX1 will have been deposited by then as only takes a short while to adhere. The CP, which it is said is the problem, only becomes an acid after long exposure to heat. So once it's job is done it can be dumped. They must have a reason for using CPs (if they do they won't say) as if they dumped their ingredients in runny oil it would be the same ? they must have a reason for using CPs.

Thanks for mentioning the Forte products, I vaugely remember hearing of them some time ago.
Having visited their web site I like the idea of them and think I will use the Diff and Gear one (sneaky feeling it may be similar to molyslip) as these have always worked well for me before.

As the car has been running cold, no thermostat, I think I will use the Forte diesel formula too, to clear out any 'bunging up' due to cold fuel and running temps.

I am considering Forte oil flush, despite the warnings of large clumps of sludge lodging themselves in the oilways. Should not be a problem as the car has had a synthetic oil in, which apparently cleans things out anyway, so unlikely to be large sludge deposits anyway.
Just nice to think that all is totally clean before I start, I like the idea it is added to existing oil rather than filling with flushing oil, just neater and easier.

Only Forte one I am not sure of is the Oil system protector, not sure I need that as sounds like it just keeps oil in spec, so if that is the case a good oil will do the same job. Especially after a flush out as this should have removed any debris so a clean start.
I found out a load about oils so will add these to the thread on oil http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... =3&t=37929" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

John

[CitroJim]

Chlorinated Paraffins are nasty little devils They may be a bioaccumulant, which means they build up in the body (like lead and mercury), are carcinogenic to rats and mice and may be to ourselves too Their man uses are as fire retardants, plasticisers and additives for metal working fluids which is where I guess they come in as an additive for motor oils as an extreme pressure performance improver. Mr. Opie Oils makes a fair statement I think. He makes it clear it's nasty and that responsible lubricant makers abandoned it years ago.

Basically, in general anything that starts with the title 'chlorinated' is potentially nasty stuff - remember PCBs? (Polychlorinated biphenols) used as transformer oils? I once had a job of removing some pcb filled capacitors from old electronic equipment and decontaminating around the leaky ones

On that basis I'd not use them but it's really appreciated you started this thread John as it's made us all look very closely at additives and I feel a lot of the hype and claims around these products has been dealt a near fatal blow

[charentejohn]

I think you are right on the CPs and the general opinion of them, I have used ZX1 before but only had the car for about 2 years after I used it. On the basis of current info I think I will pass them by, I will (since I have some) use ZX1 briefly once I confirm the CPs will be removed by an oil change.

I do think that additives can be of use if used wisely, not easy to do. I like the idea of the Forte products and can see how garages would use them to put off doing expensive strip downs of an engine, also as a 'toning up' of components in reasonable condition.

The only additives I have used have, as people have advised, were to fix specific problems. Iwould not use them to replace proper maintenance or on a car I thought would have a long life expectancy. I use Lucas additives in my Transit turbo diesel automatic, not a common combination. I bought it with 85k on the clock and it now has 110k, up to 85k it was not maintained much at all and the damage was really done by then. It was ok for me but at about 90k it was leaving little oil puddles everywhere if left overnight, Lucas stop leak fixed it, now only occasional drips. The gearbox suddenly made a whining noise, sounded like a 2 stroke buke was following the van, at 100k and lucas transmission fix reduced this dramatically. The box worked fine just noisy.
Value of the van £500 on a good day so made sense to use additives and it is still running fine two years later, should pass next mot ok so I will keep it going for odd jobs.
That said if I had the same problems in the Xantia I would have them fixed rather than use additives.

So some work and some don't, no substitute for maintenance but could delay the time it needs to be done ?

[charentejohn]

Finally come to some conclusions on these with the help of a lot of rummaging on the net.

The best info I have found is in the forums in the links below.

As for ZX1, despite the company being very helpful I can't get a definitive yes or no on what is in it so I have to assume a lot of chlorinated paraffin. I have to assume the worst in the face of no information.
That said the best explanation of CPs and how they work, and how they stick to metal surfaces, are here http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... 038&page=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I do feel these guys have given a good writeup on what they do, how they change and how that would come about. So they are not saying do or don't use them, just explaining how they work so you can make up your own mind. Best kind of answer there is.

Another good general additives article is this one http://thegasmisers.com/additives.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On a personal note.
I have used Lucas engine stop leak and also auto trans fix to good effect on an older engine and box. One article did say Auto Trans fix fixed the Renault gearbox problem of slipping gears on hills and warning lignt coming on, if improved ours but didn't fix it. But it did fix my whining transit auto box.

I have just used Forte engine flush for an oil change and it seemed to work well. Ran for 40 mins on tickover as recommended for first time use and very thin oil ran out when drained, also very black. Before using it the dipstick showed black oil but a little transparent, after just solid black.
About to use forte diesel treatment, but I do think these injector cleaner type products are good in general as they just clean up deposits of gunk so they were never a problem for me.
I will start separate threads for the results of the Forte products I use as it makes specific info easier to find.

I can see the logic of using addities when signs or wear set in, rather than expensive rebiuld if a car can be kept going for a few more years before rebuilding then why not.
I also believe in prevention and if they help I am ok with using them there too. My car is 10 yrs old and has done 115k Miles so I believe this is a good time to be looking at things to give it a helping hand, increased oil changes and any helpful additives I can find.

Just worth being selective on what and when you use these.

[Citroenmad]

It will be interesting to know more about what you think to the products you have used.

I think your right, preventative is the best way.

[charentejohn]

I will let people know what I find out, I used the engine flush and all ok so far but I haven't driven the car yet.
More info when it have driven the car for a few weeks and can say what the results are. It is more a case of no change is good, so hopefully no strange noises etc. as a result of using an oil flush as reported as a possible problem in some other forums.
An oil flush should not cause a problem unless the engine is really worn out ?

[Citroenmad]

I use Forte engine oil flushes in lots of cars and never have a problem.

All our C5s get a Forte engine flush on every service, they are serviced every 7K miles with the genuine parts. My oil stays very clean for longer and it can only be a good thing to clean the crap from the inside of an engine before putting in new oil.

[charentejohn]

As ever there are people saying they used an engine flush and their engine knocked / blew up and blame the flush. I assume these engines were near then end at this point anyway.

I have heard people drive with Forte flush in the car but it doesn't mention that on the bottle. I did 40 mins on tickover this time as first flush (as far as I know) but it supposedly had 5W40 synthetic oil in it so this should have cleaned up some dirt so they say.
In future I will make sure I use the flush regularly as seem a good idea. I did use a full replacement flush many years ago, replacing all the oil, but like the idea of a small amount of additive as it keeps the original oil for main lubrication.

Removal of sludge and tar like substances is good, for example piston rings only work if they can move and don't work if they are glued into their grooves. I made a cup of tea and sat there for the 40 mins noting the engine sound, the exhaust fumes and the blow by pressure when the oil filler was removed. I will wait until things settle and do a 'my oil change' post with more info.

[Citroenmad]

There is little point in putting it in new cars, it will be a few years before our C1 sees a flush and ive only flushed my currect C5 once - but will do on every service now.

There are oils which are supposed to give low friction, Lucus I think is one brand which manufacture this. I have put some in our 2cv as it was recommended and that seems to like it. Someone I was speaking to had it in their Fiat van and commented that the van was a bit quicker and not quite as hard work when laiden. I dont know about that, but it would be nice.