surging HDI first start

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 02 Nov 2011, 19:39

Hi

can anyone give me a clue.... What would cause a Hdi 110 to surge when first started.. It fires straight away then surges a few times with no resppnse to the throttle till it settles down to a smooth idle... The surging lasts no more then a few seconds but is very obvious..

Heater plugs??? Pressure sensor???

Ideas?

Thanks
paul

Post by **CitroJim** » 02 Nov 2011, 19:42

It won't be the glowplugs Paul, unless it's very, very cold in your neck of the woods as they don't really do anything until the brass monkeys start shivering...

It almost sounds like fuel starvation of the sort a 1.9TD might get in there was air in the fuel lines... Does the fuel filter housing make any whistling sounds?

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 02 Nov 2011, 21:15

No the fuel filter does not make a noise... ive not touched the filter house, all Ive done is change the pump, and the stop sensor on the end of the pump..

The lift pump would soon tell me if there was air, as id hear it gurgle when it goes back into the tank...

Have you found the handy short cut on your HDi Jim?? If you select Windscreen Demist on the heater slider, the air con Auto matically switch's on NO matter if the Main switch is on or off! It over rides it... I like that feature, because air con demists a car 10 times faster then hot air.

Paul

Dommo · Post by **Dommo** » 02 Nov 2011, 21:28

citroenxm wrote:Have you found the handy short cut on your HDi Jim?? If you select Windscreen Demist on the heater slider, the air con Auto matically switch's on NO matter if the Main switch is on or off! It over rides it... I like that feature, because air con demists a car 10 times faster then hot air.

Paul

I can confirm this is an S2 car thing, S1's in my experience (in my VSX) don't do it but my 2.1 and Activa both did it.

Post by **CitroJim** » 02 Nov 2011, 21:37

Indeed it is and S2 thing

And a very good thing too...

Back in the days when we lived in Darwin, the aircon was a blessing for demisting during the tropical wet season... You'd never think a car could mist up in the tropics but they do. Oddly, the mist was on the outside of the screen, not the inside...

Back to the surging Paul, which pump did you swap? the lift or the high pressure one and why did you swap it? Is the EML on when it's happening and does Mr. Lexia give any clues?

My money is still on an air leak. It almost sounds like one in the high-pressure parts. You didn't leave a union just a tad loose perhaps? just loose enough to bleed air...

Just stabbing in the dark really but it would appear to be to do with fuelling. Does it smoke under the surging and if so, what colour?

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 02 Nov 2011, 21:38

NO Its not Dommo

Its ONLY a Late S2 thing from Late W reg.. IE: It was added when the engine gained the extra covers... OR when the warning lights went from Blocks to Outline...!

Seriously! My V reg HDi doesnt do it, nor did the T reg mum and dad used to have, nor did a T reg I had once..nor the V reg hdi 90 ive taken in part ex..

But a W reg LX we had did, and so does mums Y reg LX HDi do it... and also this X reg HDi sx... so its NOT a trim specific option either...

Paul

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 02 Nov 2011, 21:41

CitroJim wrote:Indeed it is and S2 thing And a very good thing too...

Back in the days when we lived in Darwin, the aircon was a blessing for demisting during the tropical wet season... You'd never think a car could mist up in the tropics but they do. Oddly, the mist was on the outside of the screen, not the inside...

Back to the surging Paul, which pump did you swap? the lift or the high pressure one and why did you swap it? Is the EML on when it's happening and does Mr. Lexia give any clues?

My money is still on an air leak. It almost sounds like one in the high-pressure parts. You didn't leave a union just a tad loose perhaps? just loose enough to bleed air...

Just stabbing in the dark really but it would appear to be to do with fuelling. Does it smoke under the surging and if so, what colour?

No smoke Jim... High pressure pump.. I swapped it as the car was a non starter.. so I assumed the pump was duff... when I fitted another it was the same, so swapped it back again.. it was the crank sensor in the end...

Right, Ill have a look in daylight..

Paul

Post by **CitroJim** » 02 Nov 2011, 21:45

citroenxm wrote: Its ONLY a Late S2 thing from Late W reg.. IE: It was added when the engine gained the extra covers... OR when the warning lights went from Blocks to Outline...!

I'm pretty certain my V6 does it. Must check. That's an early S2 on an R plate...

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 02 Nov 2011, 21:47

Shouldn't do Jim... its only a late addition..

Paul

DickieG · Post by **DickieG** » 02 Nov 2011, 22:49

citroenxm wrote:Its ONLY a Late S2 thing from Late W reg.. IE: It was added when the engine gained the extra covers... OR when the warning lights went from Blocks to Outline...!

All the S2's I've ever had do it, my present HDi does it, in fact I rather suspect that some late S1's might even do it as that is when the A/C ECU design was changed.

Chris570 · Post by **Chris570** » 03 Nov 2011, 07:22

Sorry but yes, my HDi has the auto aircon (v reg) and my old v6 did as well (t plate) My activa is a late s1 and that doesnt do it. to complicate matters though, my HDi has the nice outlines on the lights (much better imo) but hasnt got the mahoosive engine cover. My V6 i'm sure had the block type clocks. I think Mr Citroen did many changes as and when he felt like it not just in one block...

DickieG · Post by **DickieG** » 03 Nov 2011, 08:12

I've just checked the Citroen HDi diagnostic manual re the surging and the only faults that relate where a fault code isn't recorded (I take it that is the case Paul?) are the following;

Fault code 10: Irregular engine knocking, intermittent misfiring, combustion noise (knocking)

Checks to be made in order of working

1 No fuel
2 Unsuitable fuel
3 Battery voltage
4 Air inlet manifold and air filter blocked
5 EGR valve jammed open
6 Fuel filter : Check the fuel heating
7 Air in the fuel supply system
8 Air flowmeter
9 Ignition Switch
10 Presence of ignition switched + (ECU supply)
11 Double relay function
12 Engine wiring harnesses - fuses - connectors
13 Inlet manifold pressure sensor function
14 Faulty turbocharger - faulty turbocharger pressure regulation
15 Mechanical fault on the diesel injector - diesel injector blocked
16 Mechanical fault : fuel high pressure regulator - high pressure pump
17 Fuel pressure sensor function

Fault code 26 : Accelerated engine speed and no power take-up.

Checks to be made in order of working

1 Mechanical fault : accelerator pedal, accelerator cable
2 accelerator pedal sensor
3 coolant thermister function
4 Booster pump (low pressure)
5 Clogged fuel filter
6 Fuel blocking due to the cold
7 Fuel heater not working

As another thought Paul, what version software is the ECU working on? Early software versions had quite a number of running faults as I found out with my very early HDi until I updated the ECU/software.

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 03 Nov 2011, 10:13

Richard... Thankyou for taking the time to type that up MUCH APPRICIATED!

Number 16 sounds like something I also suspected with messing around with the Engine High pressure pump.. Ive got another sensor for the end of the pump to try...

The car is a late 2000 X reg 110 model.. but ive no idea of the software, Im not brave engough to try an update incase it buggers it all up completely.. I need a quick fix to get the car gone to its owner.. its hanging around too long now.

Dont dont think its an injector, because once cleared theres no smoke and shes VERY smooth. So I am beginning to think initiale fuel supply/pressure ...

Paul

DickieG · Post by **DickieG** » 03 Nov 2011, 10:58

If the car is a 2000 then I'd think the software will be OK, worth checking the EGR valve though. Why not use Lexia to read the fuel pressure by looking at "Parameters" on the ignition menu, you can then look to see what state the accelerator is in etc etc.

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 14 Nov 2011, 10:09

Well for people wondering, IF any of you, I have solved this problem..

But it is thanks to Richards list of posibilities above..

Looking through the list I looked at all things I had been in contact with.. I had swapped the engine high pressure pump due to it not starting... it wasnt that orginally.. however, I had also swapped the Presser sensor/stop switch on the end of the pump!!

So, first thought of call, lexia session, and in the Live Parameters the fuel pressure was varying! and it didn;t on my own HDi.

So I swapped the sensor back to the other one... and hey presto! I solid pressure reading when idleing, and no surging!

Case Closed!

Thanks Richard for the list, extreamilly informative and hintive!

Regards
Paul

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surging HDI first start

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