what is the most comfortable Citroen?

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which is the most comfortable Citroen?

DS
5
20%
GS
0
No votes
CX Prestige / GTI turbo
7
28%
XM
3
12%
Xantia Exclusive (Hydractive) / Actva
4
16%
C5 MK1/2 (Hydractive)
4
16%
C6
0
No votes
SM
0
No votes
something else
2
8%
 
Total votes: 25

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Post by DickieG »

I'm rather surprised by some of the comments above about how good the handling is on Citroens, when it comes to car handling they are never going to be the best as they are front wheel drive and (apart from the DS) they all have huge front overhangs as the differential is behind the engine so they are immediately compromised. Then factor in unsprung weight on the suspension components made out of steel rather than lighter aluminium and they are quite some distance behind a decent rear wheel drive car.
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Post by Peter.N. »

There was a '90 DTR turbo 2 Safari for sale in Southampton a few weeks ago, sounded and looked nice - in the description. It was only up for £800.00, I did phone the chap and he said if he couldn't sell it he would MOT it for another year. It was in 'Classic Car'

I had three CXs all diesel Safaries, the last one I did over 150,000 miles in. 262k when I sold it and still going well.

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Post by Spaces »

Thanks Peter, was that the white one? Seem to remember something about one on the South Coast. I ought to follow it up, probably passed over it since would prefer a Series 1.

Dickie, you sound just like a wartime, moustachioed Bentley Driver's Club member when presented with a Traction Avant! :yikes: We all have our personal preferences (and yes, I understand that asking the front wheels to generate steering forces as well as translating the engine power is less than ideal, but so is having the steered wheels transmit braking power, having the engine outside of the axles, or the driven wheels at the opposite end to an engine which is over the front axle. Rear mid-engine, rear wheel drive would be ideal in my book but it's hardly practical for a saloon.) Were I to get involved with racing cars again it would have to be rwd for sheer fun if nothing else, but for real world speed with large amounts of safety it's not really down to which end provides the drive but how well the chassis is engineered.

Give some time to study the subtleties of a CX from the the design and geometries of the subframe and front suspension, the exquisite alloy hubs through the DIRAVI steering to the stubby, stiff rear suspension arms, pivoting from within the 'chassis' members. No multitudinous blocks of rubber trying to recreate quality suspenion design and a clever driver - the only significant rubber between the driver and the road is the tyre sidewall.

I would always choose a CX for real-world handling, even though 75% of the weight is over the front wheels. After you've driven one for a good bit, you begin to gain the feeling that the front wheels are 10 feet in diameter, with the small rears trailing and faithfully following the front no matter what. I've never covered ground as quickly as in a CX, modern Audis and BMWs feel faster but when you check the speedometer through a series of fast corners, it's never quicker than the rotating drums were - or the nasty later dashboards with dials. And as conditions worsen, a CX continues as if nothing has changed.

I do wonder if some Peugeot-Citroen drivers realise just how different a CX is from the Xantia/XM/C5/C6, or does the use of the same gas on fluid suspension somehow create the idea they were fairly similar? :chin: Isolating the bodyshell from the suspension loadings and allowing it to work purely as the torsional and bending stiffness was just one huge difference, often overlooked, but which has a huge effect on the way the car weighs and goes. The company wasn't seeking profit perfection by the late 60s and early 70s, quite obviously.

To someone who is used to modern cars' handling, the CX may feel odd at first (if for no other reason than truly accurate steering). The rear axle doesn't steer by changing its geometry according to load (and temperature, and age) - but using the smooth technique in a petrol turbo (one is/was the mild Maikonics one) I fail to recall how many 'fast' BMWs (including M5s) I've seen grow repeatedly smaller in the rear view mirror - only to see them slowly grow again on the straights, not because they were always faster in a straight line but because they were prepared to go at speeds I thought unsafe for a certain road, to 'prove' their worthiness! I fail to understand what the problem is with a degree of heel through the fastest corners, nothing feels safer than a heeling CX through a very fast bend. I'm talking 110 and 120mph btw. Speeds which I wouldn't dare try in a Xantia on the same bit of tarmac.

Maybe some simply generate a lot of understeer through poor driving (by throwing it into a roundabout)/lack of appreciation of what a real Citroen is capable of and put it down to the angles of heel they eventually generate. The cars were intended to be predictable and safe when driven flat out, right at their limits - whereas modern stuff must require little skill and remain level at highish cornering forces for it to sell - cars feel safe and predictable at low and medium speeds, but ime can grow very unsettled as they approach their limits. I blame the 'focus group' approach to engineering, combined with females on the school run and roundabouts everywhere. [-X

Here's a quote from a Piston Heads thread:
I banger-raced a CX in the UK Open, Isle of Wight in 1990. It won the championship, inc. every race it entererd over the two day event. It was a fantastic car to chuck around the dirt curcuit and lapped the 3 ltr grannies and jags within 8 laps! Brilliant car!
Here is a Setright quote, the man who could scare even manufacturers' test drivers with his speed. He was testing a CX a decade after its launch, to see if anyone else was anywhere near its abilities as a fast, comfortable family car. With narrower tyres, an odd weight distribution and such amazing comfort he didn't expect it to out-everything new class-leaders in rear wheel drive and front wheel drive.
So it was that I found the CX GTi outcornered and outhandled the others. The bend I remember best was a feeder road linking two motorways: it spiralled downhill through 27Odeg and gradually tightened its radius at the same time. The Ford shuffled its feet uneasily, and the Audi felt as hard pressed as it was when put to the proof. Not the CX: it went through faster than the others, actually accelerating all the way, while giving me that feeling that my brains were being extruded through my right ear; the feeling that signifies the achievement of really respectable lateral g forces.

If this centripetal ear-piercing were more nearly representative of steady-state than of transient cornering conditions, the steering of the CX was so sharp and quick, so accurate and unhesitating, so unfailingly faithful to every suggestion imparted to the steering wheel, be it a tiny twitch or a brutal jerk, as to leave the other two cars quite outside any comparative possibilities. There is no steering like this; all steering should be like this.
Last edited by Spaces on 01 Oct 2011, 17:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by DickieG »

Spaces wrote:Dickie, you sound just like a wartime, moustachioed Bentley Driver's Club member when presented with a Traction Avant! We all have our personal prefernces. Were I to get involved racing cars again it would have to be rwd, but for real world speed with large amounts of safety it's not really down to which end provides the drive but how well the chassis is engineered.
You might think that but having driven all manner of road cars (FWD, RWD, 4x4, Quattros etc etc) on public roads in the most extreme circumstances as far as making safe progress is concerned I've learned a thing or two in my time. With RWD the steering geometry is not compromised in the struggle to control torque steer and you have the opportunity to easily balance the car between understeer and oversteer. FWD is suitable for beginners but if you really want to explore car handling and more importantly have ha the training and ability to do so only RWD will do. CX's may have various tricks to make up for a compromised design but with such a large front overhang and FWD its akin to the battle Porsche have had with the 911, a triumph of engineering over flawed design.

Don't forget that FWD is only done for economy and space saving, how many high quality/performance cars have FWD?

LJK Setright was a respected journalist with an admiration for Citroens who could convey his thoughts into print very well but that has nothing to do with his skills behind the wheel and having the ability to get the best out of a chassis. Journalists are just that, journalists. What qualifications, training and examinations have they completed and passed to prove their ability behind the wheel? Talking and writing is one thing, having the knowledge and skill to interpret the handling characteristics of a car accurately is another thing altogether.
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Post by Peter.N. »

Yes it was the white one - same as my last one.

There was a saying about when I bought my first CX that 'if you drove one for lass than half an hour you would never want to drive one again, drive one for more that half an hour and you would never want to drive anything else' the latter proved true in my case and in most other peoples although they did feel strange at first but even at about 16' long they handled like a Mini and rode almost like a DS. I ran diesel Safaris for ten years and did a lot of miles, 30k some years and its true there is not another car that drives like them.

When the M5 first opened I drove for about 2 miles with a flat front tyre without realising it, I thought the road surface was a bit rough but not a hint of deflection on the steering - due to the centrally mounted steering knuckles. As far as I know there is no other car that will do that, certainly the XM won't.

I eventually succombed to an XM because for one it had a decent heater and that rates highly with me, the CX one was next to useless. The XM also had a parking brake that worked all the time, but apart from those niggles I much preferred the CX.

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Post by Citroening »

Spaces wrote:(one is/was the mild Maikonics one)
A bit off topic (well, this is the FCF! :wink: ) but do I read right that you still have a Maikonics converted CX?

As you no doubt know they are very very rare to see nowadays. Anymore info about the car etc would be great as I do like to try to keep tabs on these cars.

I may already know your car, but I don't know your name so not sure ATM...

At present I know of 8 Maikonics Kits left...
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Post by Citroenmad »

DickieG wrote:I'm rather surprised by some of the comments above about how good the handling is on Citroëns, when it comes to car handling they are never going to be the best as they are front wheel drive and (apart from the DS) they all have huge front overhangs as the differential is behind the engine so they are immediately compromised. Then factor in unsprung weight on the suspension components made out of steel rather than lighter aluminium and they are quite some distance behind a decent rear wheel drive car.
The majority of people wont have the first idea about how any of that effects a car. Not everyone has such experience or drive in the same mannor. If someone feels their car handles well then it may well do, it might suit their driving style, roads they drive on and the use of the car perfectly. Obviously a Citroen is not going to be the best handling car in the world (this thread is about Citroens though and so as such its fair to compare them against each other), though many cars which handle very well do so at the expense of comfort (the purpose of this thread and why many of us drive Citroens).

In any case, a RWD car is not to everyones tastes and is probably little real advantage in everyday driving, not everyone hoons around lanes or has a race track as their commute. Yes RWD cars often do feel different in their drive, however many FWD cars are good handling cars. Most people would never thank you for a RWD come winter, and so many people I know dont have any idea if their car is front, rear or even side wheel drive, not a clue. Did you see that picture of the BMW 1-series posted on here last year, snow chains fitted to the front ... they obviously use their RWD car to the full!

As far as FWD cars go, Citroens often do handle better than many other FWD cars in my opinion. The grip is often superior too.

I think what has been said, an XM, Xantia or whatever, to be a good handling car will be said in terms of the competition and what its rivals might be like. You could never compare an XM to a Lotus for example :roll:
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Post by Spaces »

Dickie, I think you see a CX (or for that matter anything else with front drive) as a compromised design only from the point of view of a highly trained driver who wishes to travel at Vmax. I see it from a practical point of view - I wish there to be maximum traction (mass over the driven/braked wheels) and maximum inherent stability - this will keep a driver from being tiring as quickly and so make him able to drive at high avergae speeds for longer. Especially on a cold, wet November night on a road of which he isn't certain. How was it that the Resistance-pursuing Nazis ditched their hugely powerful, much faster, rear wheel drive Mercedes Benz in favour of a 60hp fwd Citroen? No doubt had they had the benefit of your training this wouldn't have been necessary.

I stand by my assertion that in the real world it is the quality of chassis engineering rather than where the driven wheels are.

Anyway, we could go round and round on the fwd/rwd debate - and bore everyone to death as well as hijacking this thread. It can be a never-ending discussion which gets into the realms of physics not even you or me would understand!

Regarding LJKS, he was anything from blind to Citroen shortcomings and drove VWs and Hondas through the 80s in preference to anything with hydraulic springing. I think you may find he was more than a journalist - lawyer and musician were other strings to his bow. Possibly his sheer intelligence and eloquence lent those with any chip on their shoulder whatsoever to disbelieve his behind-the-wheel claims. His colleagues who drove with him would certainly testify he was very rapid indeed. I would suggest that an educated person who has both the deep engineering understanding combined with the artist's/musician's ability and ear to feel and hear their way through subtleties most are never aware of - not to forget the passion and the love of a subject - is likely to be very capable indeed. Perhaps one big difference between LJK and yourself, Dickie, is that you had the weight of the law behind the (otherwise illegal) driving speeds, whereas Setright just had the sharpness of his mind and the weight of his pen!
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Post by Spaces »

Peter, better heater/ventilation and better quality control/corrosion protection would be my reasons of having an XM instead of a CX. You can't enjoy a car which is rusty, no matter how hard you try! Diravi was obviously considered just that bit too much tech for les rosbifs...
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Post by DickieG »

Citroenmad wrote:The majority of people wont have the first idea about how any of that effects a car. Not everyone has such experience or drive in the same mannor.
I couldn't agree more, I'm very fortunate in that I had the opportunity to experience first hand driving a wide variety of cars (different one every day) on public roads at very high speed after having had loads of training. Like you say Chris very few people have the slightest clue about car handling and the importance of smoothness on the cars balance through bends at high speed. Some of the worst are those who claim to have their own car for rallying or circuit racing, most are clueless and get their thrills by unbalancing the car to appear quick, Senna and Prost were the masters of smoothness hence why they were blisteringly quick and their cars lasted the distance, unlike Mansell for instance.
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Post by Spaces »

Citroenmad, I enjoy a car which is composed a car is on the road in as many different situations as possible - with the exception of driving as if on a track, which is never going to happen - tractors out of fields, idiot drivers etc. A composed car, which remains as unruffled as possible. Which handles well, you might say. Or does a composed car mean one which is more comfortable?

In my experience, a car which handles well is generally comfortable too. I don't think Citroen originally sought out pure comfort, rather it was a pleasant by-product of a car which kept the tyres in maximum contact with the road for as long as possibe. That is to say, a car which always had the correct spring rate, and which maintained its geometries even when pressed.

Like you, I'm not sure what Dickie's referring to regarding the 'all have huge front overhangs because the differential is behind the engine' comment. The Traction Avant had almost no front overhang and the differential is in front of the engine, the CX has its differential to the side of the engine. Mmm, not sure what you were trying to say, Dickie.

Regarding Dickie's smoothness comment, that is exactly it and (one huge reason) why a CX or GS (compliant suspenion) is so capable and fast in the twisty stuff - bumps articulate the suspension but don't heave the body about with them, which in turn require the suspension/tyres to cope with this additional several hundred kilos going up and down. Dickie, you really should buy yourself a decent GS sometime to replace the soft-top 3-series. Then maybe you'd see the smoothness point of view from the suspension perspective, not just the steering pov! Bet you'd hate the heel and lack of 'image' but they're huge fun and as good a reason as any to understand why front wheel drive is inherently more accomplished in a front-engined car... now why can't I see that happening... :chin:

The pre-requisite of springs and dampers is to isolate the body from road bumps, not prevent it from heeling or scraping the ground. Up until Citroen productionised their fluid suspension, car springs were required for all three. They came up with anti-roll soon afterwards, but decided this was one step too far for the general public. Indeed there were many firsts on the DS which they deliberately failed to publicise, believing the suspension would be more than enough for the average new car buyer (who is rarely an engineer, educated or otherwise!) to grasp.
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Post by Spaces »

Citroening, I don't think you know of my particular car - well you didn't. It's the 230bhp one - best of the lot I reckon - and is the most special-feeling car I have ever driven. I've driven just about every decent car over the last 20 years, and fast too - so this opinion is based on experience. The sheer composure of the car at three figure speeds is phenomenal, even when you do understand the engineering - and so appreciate a CX will be something quite special on the road. At the moment it's waiting for me to do some work to the sills and longerons... I left it stored outside for rather too long. :oops: The even nicer car is a Series 1 GTi, normally aspirated.

Without wanting to say too much about my driving experiences since I signed something to say I wouldn't (and yes, before you ask, apart from the obvious they have all been legitimate!) I have probably had very similar experiences to Dickie.

As he says, it's smoothness which counts at speed. Also the accuracy with which your inputs are fed to the chassis, and its ability to feed information back to you through the seat of your pants. One reason a CX is so mind-numbingly competent is the lack of rubber bushings in the suspension.

To drive on snow and ice (with the right tyres) will tell you more about a car's abilities than anything else - but you need to be travelling at reasonable speeds to get the right info and experience a variety of types of snow and ice. Only the superior traction of a fwd/fe car is exaggerated, otherwise you get a fair indication of your car's balance and capabilities when on the edge of grip and when that grip is lost. As well as a host of other good driving habits. Many rally drivers come from Nordic countries where roads are under snow for many months of the year, probably because they have an innate understanding of the balance of a motor car, learned from years of driving on slippery surfaces.
Last edited by Spaces on 02 Oct 2011, 00:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Citroening »

Thanks for that and I think that you are right, I don't think that I have heard of it.

Going by what you said about it being the 230BHP version, that will mean that it will have the Maikonics Stage One Conversion for the GTi Turbo 1(non intercooled). Out of interest is it the Series 1 GTi Turbo or the Series 2 GTi Turbo 1? I know of, at the moment, one Series 1 GTi Turbo that has been Maikonics Converted and one Series 2 GTi Turbo 1 (non intercooled). What colour is it out of interest?

From a lot of research I know of nine (including yours!) Maikonics Converted CXs that stretch as far as one being in New Zealand.
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Post by Spaces »

It's an '86 car, a Series 2 turbo 1, but with an intercooler added complete with one-off stainless intercooler pipe which just clears the rhs headlamp. Maikonics Stage 1. It's silver. Having driven so many cars which are faster at vhs, it feels as if you're going at twice the speed you really are - this car is fantastic in its ability to lope along in enormous comfort with nothing other than the traditional Citroen air noise indicating your 125mph+ speed. And would average a genuine 27 to the gallon if you kept the speed under 110.

Good cars aren't about top speed or acceleration, but the way they go and the style with which they drive - and having driven so many, from 1920s Bentleys to 1990s Ferraris, this is a VERY special car! The crappy Peugeot instruments matter no more than the LandCrab door handles in an old Lotus.
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Post by DickieG »

Spaces wrote:Like you, I'm not sure what Dickie's referring to regarding the 'all have huge front overhangs because the differential is behind the engine' comment. The Traction Avant had almost no front overhang and the differential is in front of the engine, the CX has its differential to the side of the engine. Mmm, not sure what you were trying to say, Dickie.
I'm not trying to say anything, I'm stating the fact that a large front overhang means weight beyond the wheels which when combined with FWD means endless understeer, have overhang at the rear and you'll end up with oversteer as per 911's. One of the reasons that DS's ride and handle so well is that all of the weight of the engine and gearbox is within the axles, effectively making the car mid engined.

Other than a DS, Traction or early R5 and one or two others where the gearbox is ahead of the engine, you don't need to lift the bonnet of a car to find out if its FWD or RWD as on a RWD the wheelarch will be centrally or forward placed within the front wing to reduce front overhang weight whereas on a FWD it will be towards the rear due to the differential output shafts being located behind the engine, its for that very reason that CX's have their engines mounted slanted rearwards in an effort to address excess front overhang weight issue. The problem with placing the gearbox ahead of the engine and why the practice was abandoned many years ago is that it results in the engine being tight against the bulkhead which causes excessive engine noise to be transmitted into the cabin and poor servicing access to the engine.
Spaces wrote:Dickie, you really should buy yourself a decent GS sometime to replace the soft-top 3-series. Then maybe you'd see the smoothness point of view from the suspension perspective, not just the steering pov! Bet you'd hate the heel and lack of 'image' but they're huge fun and as good a reason as any to understand why front wheel drive is inherently more accomplished in a front-engined car... now why can't I see that happening... :chin:
You've completely missed the point I'm making about smoothness in that I'm talking of the driver having the ability to balance a car through smooth use of the controls with pedal balance and correct application of the steering. For your info a previous car I owned for a couple of years was the very first E30 M3 in the UK (D310YDP) which was also the press fleet car used by all the magazines to declare that it was possibly the best handling car ever, so I'm rather familiar with how a decently set up car performs without the aid of computers. Other cars I ran for a few years include two Alfasud Ti's which are widely acknowledged as being the benchmark for FWD car handling, indeed the Alfasud was often compared with a GS due to having a flat four engine but the Alfasud was the preferred choice of the press at the time as shown in this Motor test report so having owned those two and ran a GS X2 for a week as a company car when I worked as a car salesman I won't be looking to buy a GS right now as I've already been there, done that and preferred the Alfa.

As for FWD being inherently more accomplished in a front engined car, your CX must be entertaining with 230 BHP and the closet possible experience of driving a Roman chariot and trying to hold onto the reins, apologies I meant steering wheel.

As I mentioned earlier if FWD is inherently more accomplished with a front engined car, why are all the quality cars of the world fitted with RWD? I cannot think of any so please remind me of these FWD Jaguar, BMW, Mercedes, Aston Martin's and Bentley's with FWD. Even Audi abandon FWD for their more powerful engines and completely for the A8.
Spaces wrote:Without wanting to say too much about my driving experiences since I signed something to say I wouldn't (and yes, before you ask, apart from the obvious they have all been legitimate!) I have probably had very similar experiences to Dickie.
I'm interested, tell more if you really have had very similar driving experiences to me. What is this document you claim to have signed? I signed the Official Secrets Act three weeks ago but don't have restrictions on publishing my credentials, or are you letting on that you're the new Stig? :lol:
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