C5 Question Center Suspension Sphere Removal

[pete@co.uk]

Hi All

Glad Were Back On The Right Subject But just one thing here how do you know when the centre sphere needs replacing what happens ?

Pete...........

[cachaciero]

Hi All

Glad Were Back On The Right Subject But just one thing here how do you know when the centre sphere needs replacing what happens ?

Pete...........

Good question. The Citroen docs say that using a Lexia energise the regulator and check that the suspension movement goes harder, checked by bouncing each corner.
In my case the difference on the rear is quite noticeable, on the front the difference if any is barely noticeable, yes it does bounce but it is hard.
Given that these spheres have the dreaded internal spike they are unlikely to be partially soft for long .
So unless the C5 is set up really hard as standard then I have had to come to the conclusion that in all probability the sphere is shot.
Mind I have heard stories that:- a) there was problems with the regulators in the early days and that b) there were a large number of spheres fitted as standard with undersize damping ports. I havn't been able to confirm either of these stories.
In my case as far as I can check the regulator is working fine in that it does switch between hard and soft mode, when in hard mode the suspension height cannot be adjusted and it is also possible to monitor the return line from the electrovalve.
However there are restrictor ports in the hydraulic lines to the legs what size they should be is anybodies guess.
The logical first thing to substitute is the sphere but what should be a 2 minute job is turning out to be a bitch.
The suggestion that it is removed from behind I had wondered about, and it may be possible I would just like to know before I start the job, I do like to know how deep the water is and if their are crocodiles in it before dipping my feet in

cachaciero

[pete@co.uk]

Thank you that explains it i recently changed the front sphere,s on my c5 because it was getting hard and you could feel every bump in the road the front did bounce but not very much and was hard to push down yet the rear of the car is just right so when i changed the front sphere,s the difference was very noticeable it just floats now like the rear and its very smooth

Pete............

[cachaciero]

Pete

Your story is a little curious.
As you have an H3+ car with center sphere, then normally the front suspension in soft mode has the two leg spheres + the center sphere.
Now I don't believe that any of these spheres can go more than a little bit soft before they will get "spiked" at which point the suspension will become solid.
In an H3+ car if both leg spheres were to get "spiked" then the only spring you would have would be the center sphere and I would be surprised if this lasted to long being effectively the only "spring" in the suspension.
BUT I maybe wrong which would explain why in your case the suspension felt almost solid until you changed the leg spheres, changing both leg spheres also would also imply that they both failed at similar times or you would I am sure have noticed.

Given your initial fault I would have suspected the center sphere or regulator.

My fault is similar (identical?) to your original fault and like you I changed the leg spheres it being the easiest thing to do first but in my case it made no appreciable difference.

Now comes the BIG question, when you changed your spheres were the replacements correct for an H3+ car? because if they were for an H3 system you would get an improved ride even if the center sphere was no longer functioning.

So can you tell us something about the spheres you fitted? where did you get them? Part numbers and pressures?

Regards cachaciero

[pete@co.uk]

Hi your question is very interesting as all i asked for was c5 front sphere,s i did,nt know there,s different types but before i changed them i tried the sport mode setting and it just made the ride firmer which i did,nt like much and the front suspension was quite a bit harder on the front in normal mode than the rear, i even asked the guy a Citroen indie dealer were i got the sphere,s from to check it before i brought the sphere,s and even he said the front spheres where shot.

So i brought them and changed them and the ride quality changed much for the better even the handling of the car is much improved and it holds the road much better than before,

Also i cant tell you if i noticed any deterioration before i changed them because ive not had the car long enough i,ve only owned it for about 6 weeks now... but the ride was a lot harder than my on previous c5 the rear of my car is quite smooth when you press down its not soft not hard just right.... the front was very hard to press down indicating the spheres had gone. a lot harder than my previous c5 although that one was an h3 not an h3+ like this one.

I just checked up on the internet after reading your post there,s two different types of sphere one is the 25 bar and one is the 30 bar how can i check if they are wrong there,s no trouble for me to get them changed but i was assured they were the right one,s for the car

Ill also try the sport suspension to see if its working OK then report back here... But as it is the car is running nice

Pete......

[cachaciero]

Pete

More on this later but the Citroen Docs I have quote 57 Bar for front on H3 cars and 31 for rear. For H3 + cars 44 Bar for Engine type EW10J4?? and 52Bar for DW12 (2.2Hdi) and ES9 (V6?)
Rears are 25 saloon and 44 Estate.

If your spheres came from Citroen there will be an identification such as HH or HI or similar usually beginning H, if they are after market they may well have the pressure printed on them.

I have just noticed something else in my documentation but need to dig a little deeper, in the meantime if you can get any data off your front spheres it would be interesting.

cachaciero

[pete@co.uk]

Hi ill have a look tomorrow then ill let you know ........now i had some work done on my car today at the garage i had a new drop link and new lower ball joint fitted so while the the car was up on the ramp and the mechanic was doing the job i asked him how you would get the centre sphere out he had a look and said you have to take the subframe down as there,s no way to get it out otherwise ...........so that,s not good news i will ask around for you though to see if i find can out anything different if i do ill let you know

Pete.............

[pete@co.uk]

Hi again well i,ve just had a look and they are marked HG 57 so from what your saying i could have the wrong ones fitted ill have to look into this further ill be contacting the place i got them from Monday

Pete..............

[cachaciero]

Hi again well i,ve just had a look and they are marked HG 57 so from what your saying i could have the wrong ones fitted ill have to look into this further ill be contacting the place i got them from Monday

Pete..............

Well if you have a "solid" center sphere and you have no intention of fixing it they could be just what you need

[pete@co.uk]

Hi cachaciero


I didn't say i had no intention of fixing it i,m contacting the place i got them from then have them changed for the right ones then see how it is then if i then need a new centre sphere ill change it. but in saying all this the suspension was not solid before it was just harder than normal

I,ve had a look in the Haynes manual and it says in there to disconnect the exhaust from the manifold to gain space to remove the centre sphere then unscrew the sphere the part it goes into is called a firmness regulator.... it then goes on to say remove the mounting bolts from the regulator move the regulator rearwards then manoeuvre the sphere from position i hope that helps

Pete..........................

[cachaciero]

Hi Pete

Does it help ? yes it does, thank you for that, looks like in this case Haynes is maybe more accurate and informative than the manufacturers own documentation.
Even so turns what should be a quick job into a couple of hours, it is my belief that the cut out in the subframe was designed to get the sphere out only they got the size wrong.

One thing that you should be aware of it is not only pressure that varies between spheres it is also the damping configuration which is built into the sphere. So not only will pressure be different H3 to H3+ but also the damping, those for H3+ will have much heavier damping on the leg spheres. I suspect that damping has more to do with perceived hardness than gas pressure.
It may well be that your original leg spheres were good.

Now this subject of damping leads me onto something that I read in Citroens blurb on spheres. They imply that damping could be on the regulator or sphere depending on model but there is no further explanation of this, there are certainly restrictor orfices in the spare regulator I have on the bench and there also appear to be restrictors in the spare sphere I have.

I think that given the work involved in changing the front sphere changing the complete regulator is very little extra work. So the spare regulator I have will be cleaned up and swapped into the rear position which is an easy job to do and the rear unit currently on the car which I know works correctly on the back I will swap into the front.

I can hear you asking why?, well simply I am not totally convinced that the hardness is down to a shot sphere. There have been quite a few reported cases of H3+ cars riding hard and nobody seems to have found a definitive reason or solution for this.
Talking to my local Citroen spares man it is in his mind that in the early days many cars had this problem which he said was the regulator. Somebody else I was talking to in the trade also commented that he had had problems with over damped spheres so I just wonder if there is a problem with some regulators having more damping built in than is required.

cachaciero

[woodywoodpecker]

Tried to change the center sphere on my C5 today and failed......
The problem was that we couldn't see how to remove the old sphere and get the new one in. Citroëns own documentation just says rather glibly unscrew the sphere and remove it, but how? It wont come out or go up through the hole in the subframe the hole aint big enough.

So a question, has anybody changed the front center Sphere on an H3+ C5? and if so by what route / method did they get the old sphere out and the new one in?


cachaciero

cachaciero,
Hi just an update i did my front center sphere today my problem was cracking the sphere loose as room is limited, I fabricated a thin band out of 4mm thick pipe about half inch wide and welded two tangs for nut and bolt to clamp on the sphere. Depressurise the system with lexia and cracked the sphere then unbolted the three bolts that hold the regulator to the subframe and the sphere comes out easy, If i had the clamp made befor i started it would of taken 20mins tops to change it. If anyone wants to use my clamp i dont mind sending it to you as long as you pay the postage for sending and returning it back to me, hope this helps someone out. Forgot to say this has transformed my car the difference is night and day i changed all 6 spheres.

[cachaciero]

Hi Woodywoodpecker.

Interesting, tell us a little more.
A tool to crack the sphere is not so much a problem, I have a home made job also. Do I assume that you extracted the sphere from the rear as previously suggested? i.e slackening the regulator bolts allowed enough wriggle room to pull the sphere back past the regulator (and obviously get the new one via the same route)? and did you have to disconnect the exhaust manifold?



Rgds cachaciero

[woodywoodpecker]

Hi Woodywoodpecker.

Interesting, tell us a little more.
A tool to crack the sphere is not so much a problem, I have a home made job also. Do I assume that you extracted the sphere from the rear as previously suggested? i.e slackening the regulator bolts allowed enough wriggle room to pull the sphere back past the regulator (and obviously get the new one via the same route)? and did you have to disconnect the exhaust manifold?



Rgds cachaciero

Hi once the regulator bolts are undone it will move back about an inch there is enough movement in the pipes to the regulator for it to move back, the sphere will then come out through the hole in the subframe turn the sphere slightly at an angle and it comes out easy. I never touched the exhaust the only thing i removed was the little cross member bar behind the regulator but looking back i think that could of stayed in place aswell. It really is not as bad a job as it looks.

[cachaciero]

Hi Woodywoodpecker (Jeez can't you find a sig shorter than that

Thank you for that it really is interesting and worth knowing, have to say I really didn't think a sphere could be dropped through that hole.

Out of curiousity your replacement spheres? can you tell us a little about them where did you get them and make would be nice to know.

Rgds cachaciero