Reliability and running costs; Xantia vs. C5

rmunns · Post by **rmunns** » 26 Jul 2011, 07:55

I suspect there are several Xantia owners who have thought / are thinking of changing over to a C5 as an everyday car.

Can we have a discussion please about the issues that may concern people; I am thinking of issues like FAP, DMF and the reliability of each. Certainl;y I, for one, are rather put off by Boris' problems and many other C5 postings complaining about various difficulties.

Also maybe a list of the C5 models that don't have these issues?

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 26 Jul 2011, 08:14

We have had 5 C5s now, covering about 85K miles between to 5 in 2 and a half years.
I only ever get the 2.0HDi engine, three have been the 2.0HDi 110 8v - which is a very well proven engine and we all know how it lasts, is reliable and so on.
Two are now the 2.0HDi 138 16v and they are superb, much more performance than the 110, 6 speed box qhich gives them a even better cruising rpm and I actually get more MPG from the 138 than I do the 110s.

The 2.0HDi 110 does have a DMF, however if this should fail it can be replaced with a solid flywheel and so you should not see a problem again. Our 110 has been converted to a solid flywheel, it has now covered more miles on that than it did its original DMF and the clutch still feels great.

The later 16V 2.0HDi has a FAP filter, as does every other HDI C5 apart from the 2.0HDi 90 and 110s. There is also a 1.6HDi 'Design' which has not got a FAP, but every other trim model with a 1.6HDi does. Though really a FAP doesnt require a lot of maintenance, not on the later ones anyway, the 2.2s seem a bit more prone to earlier services and replacements. If you never leave the town then a FAP would get sooted up, but on a long run is when it works its stuff.

So if your going for a C51 then go for the 2.0HDi 110 and you won't be dissapointed, if your wanting the facelifted version, the C5II, then get the 2.0HDi 16v 138bhp. However the 1.6HDi is a decent engine, the 2.0 138 is much livlier, very similar on fuel, more refined thanks to its gearing and actually more reliable - there are reports of 1.6s disliking their turbos. The 1.6HDi is fitted to many cars, Ford Fiestas, Focuses, Mini CooperDs, Volvo C30 & S40 & S80 - Just to name a few. The 2.0HDi 138 is also fitted to a similar number of cars outside of PSA. So they are good engines.

The C5 does offer many bonuses over the Xantia and now I have lived with a Xantia I see the C5 as a good replacement for that car.

I wouldnt be put off by Boris's C5 problems, many could be a result of someone rather than the car itself. I have a pretty good understanding and knowledge for the C5s now and I think they are excellent cars, I wouldnt be onto my third if not!

I dont have time for a in detail report now, but I wouldnt let the DMF or FAP put you off, they are both features on many cars now and we will have to get used to them. Plus they dont seem to cause many problems, but it depends how you use the car/clutch.

Just think about Xantia problems and costs, Heater Matrix, strut tops, many more spheres, possibility of parts becoming scarce, rad change on some models etc etc. C5s suffer very few costly or big problems and its one reason why I run them daily.

rmunns · Post by **rmunns** » 26 Jul 2011, 08:19

Thanks, Chris, very good posting. Just one question - have you had 3 or 5 C5's?

daviemck2006 · Post by **daviemck2006** » 26 Jul 2011, 09:59

I've never had a xantia so cant comment on it but our c5, the 2.2 hdi that everyone slates has been the most reliable car I have ever owned (I have had a few), bought it at 6yrs old and 51000 miles had it 3 years now at 102000 miles, drives like the day i bought it, only probs being alternetor and starter both been replaced in last 6 months. Also averages 44mpg solo and the best tow car I have ever had as well. Thinking of changing it only because we had a mishap with a cat getting locked into it and now cant get rid of the smell. I'm actually gutted about that. wife says change it, I want to get a scrapper and change complete interior.

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 26 Jul 2011, 10:12

EVEN I am sniffing at one for a daily, depite the LOADS and LOADS of problems a customer has had with his!!

110 2.o 8v models Are the best early engine, but I wouldn't get too excited about actual performance, theres a bit more car to move then the Xantia. However, my customers trip computer average has risen slowly in his possesion, from around 40mpg to 50mpg!! He is a carefull steady driver though, and no FAP to clog up..

Theres pleanty of "Niggles" but Ive not heard of serious issues of them yet.

Paul

DickieG · Post by **DickieG** » 26 Jul 2011, 10:20

As reported on here countless times the big problem with C5's is the multiplexed electrics making fault finding and repair very difficult indeed even with a Lexia and in the case of the 2.2 all but impossible to resolve when it comes to the FAP filter. I've had several goes at re-setting the ECU's for this (on my own C5 and others) but have yet to find a solution and bearing in mind that having had long conversations with what many regard as the Guru for C5's (Paul Johnson) even he couldn't sort out the C5 I briefly owned, thankfully he allowed me to return the car to him. From the research I've carried out, the first generation of C5's are best avoided as they appear to have been an experimental go at Multiplexing electric's that didn't work and have very intolerant ECU programming causing all manner of faults to register and are then impossible to clear causing the engine to run in limp home mode (the facelift ones are much improved in this area). Don't even consider a HPi petrol as they are a complete disaster and worth more in scrap value.

Economy on the C5 is rather poor compared with a Xantia possibly due to weight as its a much larger car with a much higher centre of gravity. I found the steering on C5's to be very wooly, completely lacking in feel, with the ride not being different enough to be worthy of comment, being a newer car one can assume collision protection is better in a C5.

Values on C5 Series 1 and 2's are presently falling like a stone so on depreciation and running costs Xantia win's by a mile, any fault can be sorted out on Xantia's as they have been around for a while now and whilst strut tops do go, I've not personally had a problem with any of mine and I've had quite a few including several from brand new and high mileage/old ones so that fault isn't exactly common.

For me I'm staying with my Xantia's for a couple of more years then will skip the first couple of generations of C5 for the present 'Germanic one' for the reasons mentioned above plus the looks of the first two versions of C5's are to say the least rather challenged as if it was designed 'over the phone' or by three committee's which never met, (one doing the front, another the middle etc). Each to their own but a C5 S1 or S2 is not for me.

Clogzz · Post by **Clogzz** » 26 Jul 2011, 12:10

The biggest risk with the C5 is that trying to fix a fault may cause the car not to work at all anymore, with nobody anywhere being able to fix it at any cost.

Post by **myglaren** » 26 Jul 2011, 17:55

daviemck2006 wrote:I've never had a Xantia so cant comment on it but our c5, the 2.2 hdi that everyone slates has been the most reliable car I have ever owned (I have had a few), bought it at 6yrs old and 51000 miles had it 3 years now at 102000 miles, drives like the day i bought it, only probs being alternetor and starter both been replaced in last 6 months. Also averages 44mpg solo and the best tow car I have ever had as well. Thinking of changing it only because we had a mishap with a cat getting locked into it and now cant get rid of the smell. I'm actually gutted about that. wife says change it, I want to get a scrapper and change complete interior.

Try an Ozone Generator
I have one in my car and while the car wasn't smelly it does make it fresher. Mine is for a smoke and deodorant/air freshener allergy.

den169 · Post by **den169** » 26 Jul 2011, 19:03

Iv'e had both a Xantia estate and had a c5 estate for the last 5 years its actually only cost me £200 in repairs in 5 years not counting tyres brake pads etc,But i have been lucky my brother bought one just after me and it was a complete dog.I don't like the c5 car its one of the most ugliest cars on the road but the estate is nice looking.I wouldn't go back to a Xantia thats for sure.

daviemck2006 · Post by **daviemck2006** » 26 Jul 2011, 20:03

myglaren wrote:
daviemck2006 wrote:I've never had a Xantia so cant comment on it but our c5, the 2.2 hdi that everyone slates has been the most reliable car I have ever owned (I have had a few), bought it at 6yrs old and 51000 miles had it 3 years now at 102000 miles, drives like the day i bought it, only probs being alternetor and starter both been replaced in last 6 months. Also averages 44mpg solo and the best tow car I have ever had as well. Thinking of changing it only because we had a mishap with a cat getting locked into it and now cant get rid of the smell. I'm actually gutted about that. wife says change it, I want to get a scrapper and change complete interior.
Try an Ozone Generator
I have one in my car and while the car wasn't smelly it does make it fresher. Mine is for a smoke and deodorant/air freshener allergy.

Yes, you said that on an earlier post. I have a mate who is a car valeter, he has tried everything he knows, including one of these ozone generators, it always helps for a few days and then the smell comes back. Its not as bad as it was, the base of the back seat is the worst, its living in the shed now. Cant hardly go into car when its in, so different seats called for then sell it i think. Gonna have to hope I get a buyer with no nose, at least for a day!!!!! I fully expect it will be replaced with another C5, probably a facelift one with the 2.0hdi 138bhp. Just hope I get as good one as I have just now

Post by **myglaren** » 26 Jul 2011, 20:55

The one have sits in the fag lighter socket and buzzes away merrily whilst driving and keeps the air fresh.

It isn't mine - just on loan but I put it in my son's seriously stinky 306 and it made an appreciable difference.
Using it more or less constantly might be required in your case so a low-output unit like this would suit well - high output devices do irreparable damage to rubber parts.

bxzx16v · Post by **bxzx16v** » 26 Jul 2011, 21:18

I have run both Xantias & C5 as taxis in the past to pick one over the other is a tricky one , 2 of the Xantias were bought with 126k & 134k on both ran faultlessly with no real issues and covered a total of 176k & 240k , the only reason I decided to get rid of the 240k'er was I had ran it for three years and during that time was only off the road for a week and decided it was time to part with it ,the third Xantia was bought with 26k on and sold with only 100k on and again just required regular servicing and a front caliper , they were all mk1 1.9td's , the C5's were a 2.0Hdi 8v bought with 110k , and a 2.2Hdi 136bhp bought with 120k , the 2.0 was ran for a year covering another 20k and required a clutch & DMF (£400) , the 2.2 did only 10k in the year I had it but was getting ready for rear calipers/pads/discs , again two great comfy cars . If I had to pick one of the five it would be the C5 2.2 as it had a nice spec (vtr+) and the midrange performance was fantastic , just a shame about the styling . In my eyes both great cars and way better than any equivelant model from any other manufacturer (excluding the wifes Laguna II )

Mark

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 26 Jul 2011, 21:19

rmunns wrote:Thanks, Chris, very good posting. Just one question - have you had 3 or 5 C5's?

I have owned 3 hatchback C5s myself and we have had 2 C5 estates as well, so 5 in the household in total.

I have only had three as I kept on creeping newer to get the model I wanted, which I now have, ill be keeping this one a good while. Though my first C5 is still here as my sister has that now and its a cracker (52reg 2.0HDi 110 SX, 133K), just sailed through its MOT with no problems at all, the tester commented on what a good car it is.

I have recommended C5s to a few friends and family members now and all are very impressed with them, most of which have had Xantias and XMs in the past.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 26 Jul 2011, 21:47

I have only had one problem with multi-plexing, on my second C5 I had to replace the Comms2000 (£180) as the indicators and headlights got confused. When indicating right the indicator flashed three times then stopped, the headlights them came one - however with the stalk set to sidelights it worked perfectly. Generally multiplexed electrical gremlins are a problem with the comms2000, thought doesn't appear all that common.

So many cars are 'plexed now, Peugeot 206,207,307,308,407, 607, Citroen C2,C3,C4,C5,C6,C8 etc etc, and also lots from other manufactuers.

Its a fact, cars are getting more reliant on electronics, though it does often help diagnose an issue rather than having to throw parts at it until the problem solves. I do very much see the reason for other benefits too, its something everyone will have to get used to sooner or later and they prove reliable on the whole, when you think how many cars use it now.

Before buying my very first C5 I got talking to a C5 Taxi driver, a lot of Taxis are C5 in that particular area. As it turned out he owned 7 C5s and used them all as Taxis with drivers. He was very impressed with them and said they usually only require regular maintenance and suffy very very few issues. He had just put one 2.0HDi off the road due to it getting a little scruffy, at 350K miles!

I wouldnt buy a petrol C5, they are not good sellers and for other reasons too the diesels make much more sense. Though as said, if you have to have a petrol do not buy the HPi 2.0 petrol. The 2.0HDi 8v in 90 or 110 is th emost reliable of the lot, the 2.2 is the least so, though not all bad. If your going for the facelifted C5 then my money went on the 2.0HDi 16v, its in the middle for performance and economy, its reliable, becomming very well proven now that its used in so many cars and its very very refined.

The Xantia or the XM can not be called involving cars to drive, if a mag got hold of them it would be slated for steering feel, though who cares, unfortunately my daily commute avoids any main race tracks. I can say the the earlier C5s, particularily the very ealiest are more soggy to drive and the steering is vague. As time went by improvements seem to have been made and the steering and body control got better (I have driven far more than just 5 C5s and of all ages too).

For this reason buy after mid 2002, early 2002 saw a few improvements, some noticable like the snowflake button on the climate control unit got swapped for an ECo button, the gearbox was changed in the 110bhp cars to a stronger unit (this is easy to spot as the later box has a lift up neck on the gearlever), there were changes to suspension too, weights were added to the rear suspension etc. There were a few changes and so your best off getting a bit later car.

Our 52 plate is one with some improvements, though the improvements carried on and the drive seemed to get better. That cars has a vague feel to the wheel but it has a much tigher turning circle to the later C5s I have owned and driven.

I find the facelifted C5s quite nice to drive and I do enjoy driving mine, whether im on a motorway, about town or hooning down a country lane (not where the C5 was made for but mine puts up with it, grip is very good on quality tyres, its predictable and can make good progress).

Ride quality wise, well on the whole they are not as soft as a Xnaita or XM will be at their best. However they are comfortable, have a nice float on motorways and soak up most bumps far better than any conventionally sprung car. Not to mention the benefits of self-levelling suspenion, the fact you have no springs to break at inconvenient times causing safety risks etc. If you think the C5 is a little firm, drive a normal car again and you will soon realise how good they are. Also a lot of C5s should have had spheres now and/or will be needing them. I looked at a 2003 C5 with 50K miles and Cit history which had very poor rear spheres, so bear that in mind and check for suspension movement/suppleness.

I stepped out of the driving seat of a 2006 Audi A4 S-Line and back into my C5 the other day, despite the sports suspension and 18" wheel on the Audi my C5 had tighter and more accurate steering.

Try a few and dont be put off by the first you say, I say that as there are many bad cars around, same with any model, you need to find a good one. To start with avoid eaelier cars and the 2.2HDi, then just look out for a clean example which has been looked after and check everything works.

I have no idea what I would replace my C5 with if, for some odd reason, I couldnt buy another C5. The C5III is ok, but its not a hatchback and that is something I need and the tourer is smaller than the 'proper' C5 Estate. My C5 should last a good few years though, so maybe Citroen will have brought out something else by then. I wouldn't swap my C5 for a Xantia though, even though I have both, I prefer the C5 as a car and I do prefer the XM over the Xantia too, though all three are very different cars in their own ways. C5 vs XM, well that is much harder ...

Some day ill get round to writing a C5 buyers guide and I'll stick it up in here.

DickieG · Post by **DickieG** » 26 Jul 2011, 22:07

Citroenmad wrote:For this reason buy after mid 2002.

My C5 was a late 2002 52 reg,,,