Clatter, clatter, clatter

fridgedoc · Post by **fridgedoc** » 18 Jul 2011, 11:22

Hi Guys & Girls

as the weather has been good here I've been using my bike and I've left the car to the girls to go out and about, had a complaint that the stop light had flickered up once or twice and I guessed the HLM had dropped a little when I went out to have a look started car pulled bonnet got out of car to go to the boot to get fluid and engine made a clatter - clatter - clatter sound and stopped, strange I thought, got HLM fluid and opened bonnet ready to top up fluid, looked around engine bay as you do and noticed some oil / diesel around the diesel bulb oh poo! I thought a diesel leak stuck finger in and it was oil not diesel, on checking found the air breather / intake pipe at the rear of the engine had worked off and was I guess throwing an oil mist out, without thinking got back into car (after cursing) and tried to start car so as to top up HLM, car was reluctent to start, strange, as it normally starts on the button, then it did sort of start clatter a lot and stop, sounded as if it was a bag of nuts and bolts, checked oil level "F§§§§§§§§ heck I thought no ummm oil (or words to that effect) that was late yesterday.

Today I've had time to think, what has happened?

Obviously lost oil due to breather pipe coming off but has engine seized? and what I heard was the big ends? or has it jumped a tooth on the timing belt? don't want to try and start car again and cause any more damage.

Your thoughts please as the girls are off on the 2nd of August for a weeks holiday, all booked so one way or another got to get transport sorted.

Help!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE

mongoose100 · Post by **mongoose100** » 18 Jul 2011, 11:41

Sounds painful

All I can think here is, top oil up, fire it up briefly and pray that no damage has been done.

*Might* have only emptied the tappets (do these have hydraulic lifters) and thats where the clatter is coming from.

Best of luck

fridgedoc · Post by **fridgedoc** » 18 Jul 2011, 12:41

Hey mongoose, I was thinking the same thing, nothing to loose really

well topped up oil, and just to get some oil around engine turned over before heater light went out, all OK, then heater on again light out and turned over, fired for a second or two very clattery and stopped, tried this a few times each time the same result, ran for a couple or three seconds clattering and stopped, the question is do I keep trying? or am I doing more damage or has the cam belt slipped a tooth? or is that pie in the sky?

mongoose100 · Post by **mongoose100** » 18 Jul 2011, 12:47

I'd be at a loss as to why it might've jumped a tooth, hopefully someone else will have more knowledge than me on that one...

My guess is that she's run a bearing somewhere. I wouldn't keep trying to start it in her current state, a possible easy fix might just turn into something far worse

I'm assuming this is a Diesel? (Cant remember if you said or not

)

Post by **RichardW** » 18 Jul 2011, 12:48

Next step has got to be checking of the timing. If you've lost part of the aux belt this can cause the cambelt to jump a tooth or two. Should be pretty easy on a 94 car - clip on covers

mongoose100 · Post by **mongoose100** » 18 Jul 2011, 12:52

Another thought,
Does it sound normal when cranking? Or sound more like the battery is going flat?

Also, does the sound come from the top or bottom of engine? Hard to tell sometimes, I know.

CitroJim · Post by **CitroJim** » 18 Jul 2011, 12:56

Ummm, when you say pipe at the rear of the engine, do you mean the turbo pipe Stephen and was it right off? If so then...

That in itself would not account for the oil loss as this oil mist would be burned anyway but if indeed it is a turbo pipe and in coming right off it has exposed the turbo compressor then I suspect, sadly, that a foreign object has got into the turbo and wrecked it. This would account for the oil loss as the turbo bearings are likely to have gone and the clatter, clatter, clatter is possibly bits of dead turbo getting into the combustion chambers or causing such an air restriction that the engine is completely strangled.

I've seen a similar situation where a 1.9TD ingested a foreign object and the symptoms were much the same. It would start and run for a short time with much clatter. It was basically Armageddon inside the engine.

Sorry to be the bearer of possibly very bad tidings... I hope I'm wrong...

I'd begin by having both pipes off the turbo and inspecting the compressor wheel. It should be possible to easily spin it with your fingers with no play being detectable and there should be no visible damage on the blades.

Another possibility is that the oil may have contaminated the cambelt so an inspection and timing check is worthwhile if the compressor looks good.

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 18 Jul 2011, 13:30

i to would get the timming belt covers off and check the cam timming,

i dont know were all the oil has gone from the sump unless its the oil return pipe from the turbo had come off, then it would dump all its oil prety quick,

regards malcolm

fridgedoc · Post by **fridgedoc** » 18 Jul 2011, 13:48

OK guys

It's a 1.9 TD

when your in the car hard to tell where clattering is coming from but to my finely tuned ear

it's the top as it's a clatter rather than a clunk.

car turns over as normal not slow

Hi Jim

right, just to confirm, pipe that is off is inlet to turbo, so your idea that a foreign object (well I am in France

may have entered is a possibility or because it was low on oil and I mean low, the turbo bearing has gone?

there is oil around the cam belt cover

and it's just started to rain........................Great!!!!!!!!!!!

next question is how do I get to the turbo to check it looks like the manifold has to come off, never done this before any pointers please don't want to spend time taking off bits I don't need to.

Malcolm it is the pipe that goes straight into the turbo

Thanks all

mongoose100 · Post by **mongoose100** » 18 Jul 2011, 19:17

Jim, if the turbo has sucked in something and thrown its toys out the cot, what would the chance be that the intercooler has caught it before its had a chance to enter the engine?

fridgedoc · Post by **fridgedoc** » 18 Jul 2011, 19:20

Hi guys

All gone quiet.......

I did post:-

"next question is how do I get to the turbo to check it looks like the manifold has to come off, never done this before any pointers please don't want to spend time taking off bits I don't need to".

I have now taken the two large rubber hoses off, that is the top one and the one to the left looking from the front of the car, I can just get my fingers in on the l/h one and feel the blade which feels OK, it turns easy, cannot get enough purchase to spin it, all hoses where covered in oil, sorry that should read smothered, got my better half to turn car over this would be the first time I was under the bonnet when this was done and the clattering was definatly from the rocker box so I now feel that the cam belt has slipped a tooth or two, all I've got to do is find the post (s) regarding cam belt change/timeing as I have never done this before and I don't want to make silly mistakes

Thanks again for your input

CitroJim · Post by **CitroJim** » 18 Jul 2011, 19:22

mongoose100 wrote:Jim, if the turbo has sucked in something and thrown its toys out the cot, what would the chance be that the intercooler has caught it before its had a chance to enter the engine?

It should have. All but the smallest certainly.

I was just thinking of the consequences of that pipe being off and exposing the turbo to the open atmosphere... I was trying to come up with a scenario to explain it and came to that conclusion...

The turbo compressor can be viewed and touched by removing the pipe going into its side. It's a bit tight though...

Removing the turbo is quite a task on a 1.9TD but not impossible to do in-situ.

mongoose100 · Post by **mongoose100** » 18 Jul 2011, 19:28

Stephen, an oil coating isn't too much to worry about IMO, assuming that is, its not very fresh?

My money lies with a bearing up top somewhere - is the clatter a deep thudding or a tinny type sound? Sorry for all the questions...

Ps, Jim or someone with similar knowledge - injection pump likely to get unhappy with lack of oil pressure???

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 18 Jul 2011, 20:06

i dont like to think the worst bit it sounds like the cam belt has sliped and smashed the cam,

i would think other than checking the cam timming it might pay to ;lift the cam cover off,

easy enough now you have the intercooler ducting out the way, just three bolts,

regards malcolm

jgra1 · Post by **jgra1** » 18 Jul 2011, 20:11

if you do suspect the turbo, remove all the usual ducting and so on, jack under sump and remove offside engine mount, (this will help with any cambelt issues too) and prise engine forwards (I used a scissor jack) and then you have a lot more access to the back and the turbo.. once inlet manifold is ou fo way there is a fair bit of room back there

think you may want to remove exhaust downpipe before starting though.. a pain of a job

John