What makes a car safe?

[Rhothgar]

driver training has not worked on any of our traffic cops afterall but maybe thats because each one believe that because they are trained professionals they are infallible?

No-one's infallible but that is a pretty sweeping statement about of group of drivers that an ELITE class of driver, the skills of which you as joe public will NEVER know!

So to break that down further you are referring to Class 1 Police Drivers because you say Traffic Cops. General PC's are trained to IAM standard before they drive a patrol car (this is certainly true of Nottinghamshire Constabulary). As for traffic 'cops', there are not many out there trained to that standard.

Working under the conditions that they work under at times, it is NO surprise that they can have accidents. Driving under the 5 point system relies heavily on being able to stop within the distance you can see to be clear on your side of the road. If you drive to the system, then nothing can go wrongmproviding it is applied rigidly. What goes wrong is always a WHAT IF situation that hasn't been considered i.e. some other driver that is not driving to the same system or is paying little or no attention to the road for the given conditions?

Do you want an airbag for those conditions? I do!

Theoretically, we should not need ABS, airbags and crumple zones? But the world is far from perfect? What value do you put on your own life as opposed to other road users?

[Spaces]

Rhothgar, many subtleties were lost when Citroen began making rebadged Peugeots. The Xantia's brake pedal is as good an example as any. When Citroen designed their own cars, the brake pedal on hydraulic cars was about level with the accelerator when pushed to the floor. It was also pressure sensitive. Reason? Brakes are usually most needed when your right foot has been down hard, time taken to lift your whole right leg back and over to press hard on a brake pedal is considerable. Pressure sensitive means considerably more control over the brakes than some soggy affair, if criticised by oafs unable to relearn how to use car controls. In their wisdom, for the Xantia, Citroen's engineers stuck a bloudy long spring between the pedal and the back of the brake valve. Result? - the worst pedal I have ever known. Fords included. (Replace with solid for better results.)

Btw, I'm pleased you have such utter confidence in your abilities to 'make a mockery' of someone else's thinking. Hope you don't mind if I disagree?

[Rhothgar]

You have never been to India then D

No! Thank God. Not seen Youtube vid yet but I know what they're like.

They rely heavily on Karma and that's fine. That's their way of life. I have a great respect for Hindus even though they make crazy drivers.

[Xaccers]

I'm actually rather fond of the Xantia's brake pedal with spring, it gives me perfect feed back, and stops without issue.
Plus it means if I drive a lesser car I don't have the musscle memory of just pressing the brake a bit to stop, resulting in bugger all braking and potentially an accident.

[Rhothgar]

Btw, I'm pleased you have such utter confidence in your abilities to 'make a mockery' of someone else's thinking. Hope you don't mind if I disagree?

Thank you! It was actually a lack of someone else's thought processes?

Of course you can disagree. I don't mind at all. Carry on!

[myglaren]

As for numpty car drivers, we should all start on bicycles, so we understand how vulnerable we are without the benefit of a tin box around us. We should treat driving as a privilege, not a right.

I do think that riding a motorcycle for a year or so before taking a car test improves awareness almost infinitely.

For those who survive, that is.

[Deanxm]

driver training has not worked on any of our traffic cops afterall but maybe thats because each one believe that because they are trained professionals they are infallible?

No-one's infallible but that is a pretty sweeping statement about of group of drivers that an ELITE class of driver, the skills of which you as joe public will NEVER know!

So to break that down further you are referring to Clas 1 Police Drivers because you say Traffic Cops. General PC's are trained to IAM standard before they drive a patrol car (this is certainly true of Nottinghamshire Constabulary). As for traffic 'cops', there are not many out there trained to that standard.

Working under the conditions that they work under at times, it is NO surprise that they can have accidents. Driving under the 5 point system relies heavily on being able to stop within the distance you can see to be clear on your side of the road. If you drive to the system, then nothing can go wrongmproviding it is applied rigidly. What goes wrong is always a WHAT IF situation that hasn't been considered i.e. some other driver that is not driving to the same system or is paying little or no attention to the road for the given conditions?

Do you want an airbag for those conditions? I do!

Theoretically, we should not need ABS, airbags and crumple zones? But the world is far from perfect? What value do you put on your own life as opposed to other road users?

I am not aware of accident rates among iam standard drivers, i would imagine fairly low since there are not many of them and they are of course well trained.
From personal experience i very rarely see a traffic cop signal or obeying the speed limits.
Now of course they are trained to a certain standard but if they acted like true professionals they would know that to be safe you must not only be aware of whats happening around your vehicle and pre empt the movements of those same vehicles but also you have to behave in a predictable way for other road users too? also few are the times i have followed a police car that isnt speeding, rather strange given the level of training that they dont seem to understand that the speed limits are there for a reason, something they like to remind me of no amount of training will reduce stopping distances in abs equiped cars in an emergency.

That and EVERY traffic cop i have ever met has been patronising and that winds me up

no but really im notsaying EVERY iam qualified driver is wreckless or dangerous, thats obsurd, but a good few dont seem to display the sort of basic driving skills you would expect and to my mind if you are an iam qualified driver you should really know how to drive down the road within the speed limits and use your indicators when you get to the end of it thats all, a good few dont.

D

[Deanxm]

I do think that riding a motorcycle for a year or so before taking a car test improves awareness almost infinitely.

For those who survive, that is.

Couldnt agree more, it does make you think more about the problems and risks created by larger vehicles for cyclists and bikers, i suppose it raises your awareness of other road users really.

D

[DickieG]

I'll let you into a secret as to what I've been doing for a living for the past 12 years,,,,,Metropolitan Police Advanced Driving Instructor attached to the SDU (staff training) based at Hendon. Which means that I'm one of just four people out of 26,000 Met Police Officers tasked with training not only Police Officers how to pursue safely but I also train the Instructors from scratch and in their yearly re-assessment as well as being a final drive tester. I also play the part of being "The Subject" and pursued by colleagues. Incidentally all of this training is carried out on public roads in unmarked cars. I believe all this goes some way to explain how others regard my own driving and Instructional abilities.

Prior to doing this I was on active duty as a Police Advanced Class 1 pursuit driver since August 1985.

During all this time of Police driving the number of collisions I've had is nil. I'm rather proud of that fact, especially when you take into consideration that I've been using the Police exemption from red ATS, keep left islands, speed limits and at times I've been involved in several live high speed pursuits where the potential for tragedy is rather high and to be honest, very scary.

As such I believe I have a little knowledge a little about cars, the safest way to drive them and the consequences of what happens when things go wrong as I've also been the poor sod turning up to deal with the carnage and then having to tell relatives that their beloved (who simply went to work that day) is now in the morgue, oh and then I'll request them to come with me to identify the body. Anyone fancy that job?

If anyone wants to debate driving, car design, road safety etc with me please do so as its something I care deeply about but please don't waste my time saying that airbags, ABS, ESP etc are pointless or that all Police drivers are dangerous as the level of training we give them at Hendon is exceptionally high and contrary to popular belief we do not concentrate on throwing cars around, the training is based upon developing observation, anticipation and planning skills to avoid getting into trouble in the first place.

[Xaccers]

As for numpty car drivers, we should all start on bicycles, so we understand how vulnerable we are without the benefit of a tin box around us. We should treat driving as a privilege, not a right.

I do think that riding a motorcycle for a year or so before taking a car test improves awareness almost infinitely.

For those who survive, that is.

Definitely agree.

I think some of the problems these days are that cars are seen as a right rather than a responsibility, and an appliance/convenience rather than a huge lump of metal that could potentially kill.
People don't take the danger of driving seriously.
Also, with more motorway driving and traffic people get complacent about stopping distances hence driving too close.
These days most of the time you see brake lights on a motorway it's where the car in front is slowing down from 70+ to 50, but not stopping.
The safe distance between cars doing that is a heck of a lot closer than the safe distance if the car in front is actually stopping, so people get used to being safe only a few car lengths behind another car, and when that car actually has to stop, bang you have a crash.

[myglaren]

I have been fortunate enough not to interact with many traffic cops but without exception they have all been pleasant, polite, respectful and helpful, even on the occasion where I was in the wrong and they would have been justified in a much more 'robust' approach.

Like any other profession, there are the odd ones that despite intensive training remain unsuited for the job. Fortunately rare in my experience.

I have encountered only one such, a detective who should have known better but thought that I would be intimidated.
He soon got shifted to another force, under a cloud.

I haven't voted in the poll as there is no clear preference, all are valuable under the correct circumstances, often in combination.

I am in full agreement with those who advocate improved driving standards would be the most significant improvement that could be made.

[Spaces]

If anyone wants to debate driving, car design, road safety etc with me please do so as its something I care deeply about but please don't waste my time saying that...

An engineer as well, perhaps? What brand of tyres do you use?

[addo]

I'm surprised that in the context of what I considered to be carefully worded poll questions, my selection of one option was (so far) the only one.

For the purpose of choice, I considered "safety" to mean designed-in aspects of the whole car - as in, what of it is between the road and sky.

[DickieG]

If anyone wants to debate driving, car design, road safety etc with me please do so as its something I care deeply about but please don't waste my time saying that...

An engineer as well, perhaps? What brand of tyres do you use?

Well as it happens,,,,,,,,,,,,tyres, black and round the last time I looked at them.

[Rhothgar]

I do think that riding a motorcycle for a year or so before taking a car test improves awareness almost infinitely.

For those who survive, that is.

I'm alive! Do I get a gold star?

You're 35 times more likely to get killed or seriously injured on a motorbike! The official statistics say per mile ridden. Distance is irrelevant unless you ride 2 yards.