Would you ever buy a just out of warranty modern car now?

addo · Post by **addo** » 12 Mar 2011, 16:24

Your "car history" shows the fallacy of our oil change obsession.

Three economic losses with no relationship to lubricants.

C.J. · Post by **C.J.** » 12 Mar 2011, 18:17

C.J. wrote:I can feel a 2CV coming on here you know!

Can't believe this little simple gem that can be fixed by a blind infant hasn't been metioned yet.
Hasn't anybody had one?

spider · Post by **spider** » 12 Mar 2011, 18:27

Parents had two

not at the same time though. R plate and a V plate. We are talking mid 80's here so they were not too old, although the V plate one even then was a bit rough.

Although (1) I did not live with my parents* (2) I was about 12 maybe 13 at that time.

*that's far too complicated to explain here, and its not what you might conclude, plus its completely off topic.

Chlorate · Post by **Chlorate** » 12 Mar 2011, 18:55

I have a theory that most manufacturer warranties nowadays are pure money-making exercises.
You can expect a brand new car to maybe go wrong a couple of times in the first few years of ownership - caused by problems with manufacturing and whatnot - then be mostly fine for most of its life and start to go wrong again towards the end of it's life, the so-called "bathtub curve". Hence why warranties exist in the first place.

But take Kia for example (I choose this because my mum recently bought one - despite my numerous recommendations) : 7 year warranty. Something tells me that they're not expecting their cars to go wrong very often - if they made an unreliable car, they'd be losing a lot of money replacing parts under warranty.
What they're cashing in on is the servicing, I know they're not legally allowed to demand that you take them back to the dealership for services, but they can however demand that you use genuine Kia parts.
And the salesmen at the dealerships are very slippery little gits, they said they'd offer a "competitive price" compared to independent garages and that they'd do this that and the other that other garages wouldn't etc.
So when the first service is due, a letter arrives in the post detailing what they would carry out when you bring them the car, the list was a page long and contained many many things that really didn't need doing, or should be done by the owner anyway: like check and top up the power steering fluid.
When all that really needed doing was a simple oil change...
And they wanted:
Wait for it...
Nearly £200.

For a job that would cost ~£30 if you did it yourself and ~£80 if you took it elsewhere.

Needless to say: we told them where to stick it.

But think of all the cars Kia is selling and all of the £200+ yearly services they'd be getting. God only knows what they'd want for a new timing belt...

And they're all too happy to sell you an even longer warranty...

Anyway, rant over.

To be honest I'd rather buy a car just out of warranty than a brand new one. Firstly it would be less than half the price of a new one, and secondly if it was going to go wrong in a way that would be covered by a warranty: then it would have probably already done so.

-Alex

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 12 Mar 2011, 19:04

As I see it the problem with modern cars is not so much with electronics or multiplexing which actually brings many advantages and "bells and whistles" some of which after you have had them you begin to wonder how you ever did without them

but also reduced cost at a manufacturing level at least.
No the thing which concerns me are failures of basic mechanical stuff at very low mileages.
Ten years ago a clutch could be reckoned to last 120-150K when used by an average driver, today? 90K, flywheels ten years ago would last pretty well forever today? well they fail !

Rear radius arm bearings? never had a failure on any of the CX's or XM's, C5 failures common at circa 90K. Suspension bearings generally never had a problem apart from the odd balljoint.
100K C5 well lets not go there! and Pug 407's and I suspect C5 III.s appear to positively eat suspension joints!.

My take is that in many areas in order to cut manufacturing costs many mechanical areas have been dumbed down / value engineered to an unacceptable level at least for the secondhand buyer.
It's probably compounded by the fact that all manufacturers sub-contract out the design and manufacture of many assemblies both major and minor and these sub-contractors supply more than one manufacturer. Now if one of these sub-contractors sells a poorly designed part to one manufacturer there is a strong likely hood that it or a variation of it will also get sold to other car assemblers..

As in everything there will be bad cars and good cars but I believe that on average mechanical reliability has drifted towards the bad end rather than the good end.

cachaciero

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 12 Mar 2011, 20:51

C.J. wrote:Really though. Are customers REALLY gagging for auto lights on , auto windscreen wipers, auto lane departure devices, auto one push electric windows, auto climate control, auto self cleaning dpf's, etc etc.

I know I can survive without all this troublesome unreliable and expensive to repair nonsense, in fact, I do actually quite like manual wind down windows.
I can feel a 2CV coming on here you know!

That'll be me then

I wouldn't say i couldn't live without those features, but they are very nice to have and enhance my enjoyment of the car.

Auto wipers and lights dont really have a lot to fail on them, they are designed that if the sensor fails then they revert back to manual wiping and headlamps. One touch windows have been on the go for years, i wouldn't consider them a luxury or troublesome. They are ideal. I love climate control, such a pleasure to have all year round. Dial in your temp, hit auto and its away, sorting out the temperature, fan speed, fan flow location, recirculation etc. I would not like to go back to a car for daily use which didn't have air conditioning - manual or climate.

Cruise control is one of the things I look for most in a cars spec levels. Which does actually seem more reliable with modern cars than the old vacuum type cruise control systems of old.

I would much rather buy a car with a warranty, even if that warranty was only a month long. As any problems the car has when you buy it you could well get repaired under warranty, so long as its not wear and tear items. Buying a car out of warranty can be a risk, if you get down the road and the engine goes pop you might struggle to get any help from the dealer and if a private buy then its even more difficult.

However, ive only owned one car within its manufacturers warranty myself, which i had to use countless times. Ive owned others with 1-6 months after market warranty cover which ive never needed to use.

Generally if you find a good car I think it will treat you well. Providing you dont buy something which has known design faults.

I don't think people should be scared off modern cars, times have to change and our cars are too. Yes they might be getting more complex but that is something to get used too and on the whole they are not too much more hassle. Yes they often need plugging into software to diagnose a fault. However that is a very beneficial thing, plug it in and it should tell you where its troubles are and what is the cause. Fault codes can be general at times but at least it gives you a starting point.

Mechanical items are what concern me, but then again, if you research into the car your buying and find out its possible faults, you will at least know what you are buying or have an idea what might go wrong.

If something is known to go through injectors or fuel pumps etc then its probably something you should avoid or budget it into the running costs if you really must own it.

Things like DMFs and FAP filters are fitted to a lot of modern cars. I dont like DMF nor do i agree that there is any real point to them, it just seems like a bad design. I know some modern engines are designed with them and so they are needed for that reason. Some will work fine with a solid flywheel in place of the DMF. The FAP filters are there to help reduce emissions and a lot of diesels have them now, called a variety of things they do the same job. If its a case of spending £70 or whatever every 80K to get it topped up, im happy with that.

Things like rear arm bearings, as they have been mentioned already, might well last a similar mileage to those on older cars, however even if they need replacing every 100K, thats still not bad going and they dont cost the earth to buy & fit.

Things which would bug me if is the engine lasted 100K or the gearbox. Something that is going to be a pricey and big job to put right

Im certainly not put off by any modern cars, unless I know that there is a problem with a particular one which could end up costing a lot of money to put right, I would buy one.

Modern cars do bring many advances to motoring, safety, efficiency, spec levels, etc. Safety in modern cars is something I really look into when buying.

C.J. · Post by **C.J.** » 12 Mar 2011, 21:26

cachaciero wrote:
It's probably compounded by the fact that all manufacturers sub-contract out the design and manufacture of many assemblies both major and minor and these sub-contractors supply more than one manufacturer. Now if one of these sub-contractors sells a poorly designed part to one manufacturer there is a strong likely hood that it or a variation of it will also get sold to other car assemblers..

cachaciero

Front coil springs snapping springs....

... to mind.
Dodgy batch of recycled Lada metal supplied to many European manufacturers I suspect.
My Pug Partner suffered with this common failure 8 years ago.

howiedean · Post by **howiedean** » 12 Mar 2011, 21:28

HDI wrote:One solution I've been considering is installing an XUD into a much older car, one with the bare minimum of complications. Then maybe keeping a few XUD's in stock as service replacements !

Imagine an XUD in say a Morris Minor !!!

Or maybe an XUD in a DS.

Post by **Peter.N.** » 12 Mar 2011, 21:29

A much better idea

C.J. · Post by **C.J.** » 12 Mar 2011, 21:39

Electric windows are ideal then Citroenmad?

Well maybe for some, but I personally find them a pain in the bum, especially when they develop a mind of their own.
Had a C5 back in 2002, and they'd suddenly just lower themselves. It would take 2 or 3 attempts to get them back up again.
Dealer found no fault, just as they didn't on the hilarious (to passers by) 'dancing' whilst stationary suspension problem.
Mustn't forget the horrendous crashing and banging rear suspension either, partially fixed by bunging more sound deadening felt under the back seat.

Strangely enough, I didn't have ANY of these faults on my 1962 Ford Anglia 105E back in the late 60's.

Post by **Peter.N.** » 12 Mar 2011, 21:44

...or my Velox's or Cresta's.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 12 Mar 2011, 21:48

Well, when they work, yes they are ideal!

I was meaning having a one touch function when electric windows are fitted.

I guess Peter, that you wish Xms had manual windows? Those cables are a bit of a fiddle to repair!

Actually your not the first person ive heard say their C5s windows liked to play around. Did they lower all the way down or just partly?

Ive had this, it was the button for the windows on the cars key which had got pressed in slightly.

C.J. · Post by **C.J.** » 12 Mar 2011, 21:58

Peter.N. wrote:...or my Velox's or Cresta's.

Just a bit of tin werm to contend with instead!

At least you knew what was going on with the car killing rust of the 60's ey?

C.J. · Post by **C.J.** » 12 Mar 2011, 21:59

Citroenmad wrote:Well, when they work, yes they are ideal!

I was meaning having a one touch function when electric windows are fitted.

I guess Peter, that you wish Xms had manual windows? Those cables are a bit of a fiddle to repair!

Actually your not the first person ive heard say their C5s windows liked to play around. Did they lower all the way down or just partly?

Ive had this, it was the button for the windows on the cars key which had got pressed in slightly.

You experienced the dancing suspension or rumbling back end 'cured' with sound deadening felt?

Windows only went half way down iirc btw.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 12 Mar 2011, 22:04

With one of the C5s ive had, if i pulled into a parking space on full lock and left it like that, with the front tyres scrubbed under, the car would dance from low to intermediate heights at the front only. Though its is a common thing with hydropneumatic Citroens and the C5 only does it as the pump is electric and therefore remains active for a few minutes after turning the engine off.

Ive not had the problem where the whole car has wanted to move up and down on its suspension though.

As for the rumbling, I believe early C5s did do this and there was a few different cures tested, added weight and sound insulation. Im sure later cars from around mid 2002 had improvements made to stop this issue. Ive never had a C5 do this, I assume as the eldest ive had is a 52.

All you need to do is put these slight issues down to character

Windows do sound like a problem with the key opening facility, as that allows you to open the windows a little bit for ventilation, the next press opens them further and the next press closes them.