C5 V6 auto box fluid

Allanxantia · Post by **Allanxantia** » 16 Mar 2011, 20:44

Don't want to be smug, but I found this, the full list of luids approved by ZF themselves, scroll to the bottom of page 5.

ZF TE ML 11B

http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_Inter ... en0700.pdf

Sid_the_Squid · Post by **Sid_the_Squid** » 16 Mar 2011, 21:25

Pages 4 & 5 of this document seems to contain a large list of oils, without much indication of which transmission(s) they are suitable for..
I think the clue lies at the end of page 3. I draw your attention specifically to this sentence.

5 and 6-speed as well as 4HP20 automatic transmissions:
ZF 5 and 6-speed as well as the ZF 4HP20 automatic transmissions are filled maintenance-free with specially developed partially
synthetic ATF oils. Maintenance-free fills are intended for normal operating conditions. Especially driving at very high operating
temperatures can result in accelerated aging or increased wear of ATF oils. It is recommended, in the event of severe operating
conditions, such as:
- frequent highway driving in top speed range,
- offensive, sporty driving style,
- frequent trailer operation,
being above average, oil purification (oil change) on automatic transmissions is recommended between 80,000 km and 120,000 km, or
8 years, depending on the load.
In each case, only released ATF oil may be used for oil changes. And oil changes must be performed in accordance with the relevant
specifications.

Which suggests that the bog standard oils are not suitable, which is what we have been saying.

Post by **CitroJim** » 16 Mar 2011, 21:25

Allanxantia wrote:Don't want to be smug, but I found this, the full list of luids approved by ZF themselves, scroll to the bottom of page 5.

Yes, but NOT for the 4HP20 Allan. ZF-TE-11B is a specification for Dexron. ZF recommend this for certain of their 'boxes of the hydromechanical variety such as the 4HP18 and so on.

The PDF you quote specifically says ZF Lifeguardfluid5 (ZF No. S671 090 170) for the 4HP20 and this is not on the 11B schedule and therefore not Dexron.

The problem with the document is that it is easy to reach the wrong conclusion. The clincher is that only the Dexron varieties are listed under 11B but the phrase on page three:

5 and 6-speed as well as 4HP20 automatic transmissions:
ZF 5 and 6-speed as well as the ZF 4HP20 automatic transmissions are filled maintenance-free with specially developed partially
synthetic ATF oils. Maintenance-free fills are intended for normal operating conditions. Especially driving at very high operating
temperatures can result in accelerated aging or increased wear of ATF oils. It is recommended, in the event of severe operating
conditions, such as:
- frequent highway driving in top speed range,
- offensive, sporty driving style,
- frequent trailer operation,
being above average, oil purification (oil change) on automatic transmissions is recommended between 80,000 km and 120,000 km, or
8 years, depending on the load.
In each case, only released ATF oil may be used for oil changes. And oil changes must be performed in accordance with the relevant
specifications.
The ZF automatic transmissions 5HP18 and 5HP30 are exceptions and must be filled differently depending on the version.
The oils released in each case are specified in the ZF Lubricants List TE-ML 11.

This can be read in two ways. Firstly it speaks of released ATF and goes on to say (my bold red highlighting) that released ATF is that according to specification TE-11-B which is for Dexon. You can infer from this that Dexron therefore a permitted lubricant for the 4HP20 but as already seen the recommended is ZF Lifeguardfluid5 (LT71141) which is not mentioned in connection with Schedule 11B and is therefore something different to Dexron.

Also from this you can see how the purveyors of ATF can get away with claiming it is Ok for gearboxes where LT71141 is specified.

ZF are guilty of misinformation and of almost contradicting themselves. Maybe something has been lost in translation.

Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick but I've spent time studying both this document and others and my conclusion is that ZF Lifeguardfluid5 (LT71141) remains the only fluid recommended by ZF for use in the 4HP20.

Sid_the_Squid · Post by **Sid_the_Squid** » 16 Mar 2011, 21:29

lol you noticed that too ay Jim

I should have realized you'd be hot on this topic.. Still great minds and all that

Post by **CitroJim** » 16 Mar 2011, 21:35

Sid_the_Squid wrote:lol you noticed that too ay Jim I should have realized you'd be hot on this topic.. Still great minds and all that

I was busy frowning over it when you posted ahead of me Sid, hence our two posts drawing much the same conclusion...

I can see the problem though; it is very confusing and the more you delve into it the more confusing it becomes

mongoose100 · Post by **mongoose100** » 16 Mar 2011, 21:50

And here we have it in laymans terms;

Want your 'box to last, use the correct 'cat pee' oil... :lolsign:

Wanna kill it, throw Dextron in it

There ya go

Allanxantia · Post by **Allanxantia** » 16 Mar 2011, 22:05

Sorry for starting, didn't want to be controvertial, I just really grudge giving money for brand names, thats one of the reasons we drive citroens after all.

I emailed this company and asked what brand it is, they claim that this is from a bulk 200litre drum of Esso LT71141.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ATF-MV-LT71141-Sy ... 563c3497a5

I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, just poiting out how deep the can of worms is.

addo · Post by **addo** » 17 Mar 2011, 06:15

One of the things that comes up quite often with DIY car paint is "don't mix brands". People warn of dire consequences if (for example) you use a PPG medium solids hardener with Spies-Hecker medium solids 2K clearcoat.

I like to remind the doomsayers, it's in the interests of manufacturers to ensure compatibility! Easier to keep people happy first time, than waste money defending claims.

With the AL4, all the lunched boxes I've heard about, have been due to design issues (as in, solenoids/software not updated or box driven well beyond service point). Lack of a no-cost rectification for the former issue, was exceedingly poor IMO.

Look at the massive leaps in design tech since 1994 or so, when the 4HP20 was on the drawing board. Everyday cars are coming out with driveline tolerances once the province of aircraft factories and Citroën hydraulics. It puts more demand in the marketplace for improved lubricants, and I suggest this is where the aftermarket has also lifted its game.

That's still no excuse for people attempting to suggest an old school oil may suit the 4HP20, however, a fluid specified as backwards compatible for (say) a Dex application may in reality be 100% suited to the ZF box in question.

I don't decry the sugestion that LT71141 is the safest bet. However, I do think it's fair to acknowledge the progress of technology has improved goods we may purchase, and this could well include interchangeable transmission fluids.

Cheers, Adam.

p.s. My favourite example of progress was buying a box of brand name nails that featured a "Best Before" date on the side.

Honestly...

Post by **CitroJim** » 17 Mar 2011, 19:08

I see where you're coming from Adam but again there's a counter argument that using modern synthetic oil in a vintage car is not a good idea; they were designed to be lubricated with straight SAE40. Maybe the same applies to the 4HP20. I don't know...

addo wrote: p.s. My favourite example of progress was buying a box of brand name nails that featured a "Best Before" date on the side. Honestly...

Excellent. Just as bizarre as bottled water having a best before date. Water has been around since the beginning of the universe and it's still the same stuff.... How can something that's 13 billion years old already suddenly be best before a few months hence..

The world has gone bonkers...

addo · Post by **addo** » 17 Mar 2011, 19:17

Ah; the lurch off-topic, into fun stuff!

With "vintage" motors, I'd be most concerned about additives that attacked the poured/scraped bearings (mainly because it's all but bloody impossible to get this done right again with a complete loss of vintage tradesmen). Just like how the sulphur package in many contemporary gear oils can eat bushes in an older gearbox.

LT71141 makes a great stop-gap when you're out of LHM and it's 0600H on a Sunday...

Post by **Paul-R** » 17 Mar 2011, 22:38

CitroJim wrote:Just as bizarre as bottled water having a best before date. Water has been around since the beginning of the universe and it's still the same stuff.... How can something that's 13 billion years old already suddenly be best before a few months hence..

I used to think that as well until it was explained to me that the Best Before date is there in case of bacterial growth.

Suddenly it made sense.

Allanxantia · Post by **Allanxantia** » 18 Mar 2011, 10:10

Going to do this in the morning. I don't have a lexia, so is it as simple as, slightly warm up the box at idle, drain the transmission oil through the drain plug.
Fill with 3 litres of fluid?

How correct is the level likely to be after this?

addo · Post by **addo** » 18 Mar 2011, 11:01

I would suggest using a Pyrex jug or similar to accurately measure the released volume. Replace pretty much the same amount; maybe 100ml more.

Overfilling an auto box can cause problems. Turbulence of rotating parts foams the oil if overful and foamed oil may lose system pressure and the ability to "wick" heat away from friction surfaces (part of the very important detail in a modern automagic gearbox).

Allanxantia · Post by **Allanxantia** » 18 Mar 2011, 11:05

I had thought that it may have leaked or dropped over the 8 years?

addo · Post by **addo** » 18 Mar 2011, 11:12

Option B, then, would be to look for one of the service data type books (or, several so you may cross-check) to see the "drain and refill" amount for an ATF change.