Mcfearsome struts - bring back proper suspension!!

[andmcit]

My sister's 2006 C4 1.6HDi 16v shook her confidence in it for the first
time ever on Monday morning on the way to work when it's front offside
started thrashing loudly and sending a shuddering vibration and it felt
plain 'wrong' after catching one of the many potholes encountered on
it's daily business.

It travels many miles all over the South of this Country and usually merrily
munches through brakes and tyres (a bit too enthusiastically for my liking
but hey, it's not me driving it) and when it does need something it gets all
the regular main Cit dealer TLC 'lavished' as it's well loved and privately
owned by my sis rather than a company car: basically her business pays the
traveling costs so it's a "company car" in all but name as that's where the
money goes - paying for the car's purchase loan - long since paid off too.

It was limped back home and the second household car was used - my BiL
and Sis live on site for his work (RSPCA) so his car is not normally used.
Appointment was made yesterday to get it over to be seen at the local
dealer and it was fixed and collected today at teatime.

The car has never ever really felt smooth or supple when I've been a
passenger in it and I have been a mite disappointed that this is the way
Citroen is going these days casting off the apparently "expensive and
complicated" wet set up we all adore here on FCF. This C4 just reminded
me of my misgivings doing what I've read and seen happen to many Saxo's
ZX's and the like and the damned thing snapped it's coil spring!!

Now here's the thing, the dealer sourced a cheaper OEM equivalent spring
from a factors (the car is now out of warranty and apparently this is no big
deal for them these days) and happily fitted it with I believe a pukka thrust
bearing collar and was quite happy to just replace the one broken side!!

It was suggested the opposite could be renewed as well although
nobody really understood why and it wasn't discussed at any length...

surely the pair of front springs need renewal even if this doubles the
estimated 200+ bill - I'm guessing as my Sis wouldn't say!!

Do I suggest renewing the spring on the other side for her - EuroCarParts
list one at almost £50?

Is this due to duff design, fatigue, brittle metal when it's damned cold?
What!!?

Horrid ropey struts - I say bring back double wishbones!

Andrew

[SwissSPEC]

Coil springs fail quite regularly, my dads skoda did the exact same thing, he just got the one side replaced, car is fine & handles exactly the same & he is an enthusiastic driver. Unless there is damage or wear to the other one, i wouldn't bother replacing it.

[Dommo]

My 306 broke a front spring about a year after I got it, took me a few days to figure out what had happened (doh!) and the top 1/5 of the spring was totally missing, so where that ended up - and whose tyres it probably killed - I'll never know.

Cheap balls of gas makes more sense to me..

[lexi]

Roads are terrible now as well for the third year. I think if a spring is compressing in these temps we have had lately it may take it's toll.

The Mac strut is a cheap and cheerful suspension.
Even the earlier Honda Accords which had more supple wishbone suspension have went over to cheaper struts since being built in UK.

[Peter.N.]

I don't think its so much the roads as poor quality springs - as with most other things. I spent the first 30 years of my 55 years of driving on springs and I don't recall ever having one break, or at least not coil springs, I did snap the rear leaf spring on a Vauxhall Cresta once. I have spent the last 25 years on hydropnumatics, never had one of those break either

Peter

[kenhall1202]

I have replaced a broken rear spring of my wifes C4 ( car has a ride like a cart even with intact springs!!) which I believe was caused by stress corrosion cracking - Citroen in their repair instructions make a big thing about taking great care to ensure that the paint coating is not damaged. The replacement was therefore well waxoyled to minimise the corrosion risk.

Honest John in the Telegraph has commented on this problem IIRC and says that it is mostly confined to European cars where the modern springs no longer have a shaped and ground flat bearing surface at each end but instead have 'pigtail' ends which sit in a correspondingly shaped metal or hard plastic cup.

Dumbed down engineering for the sake of saving a few bob I call it.

[HDI Dave]

Is this due to duff design, fatigue, brittle metal when it's damned cold?
What!!?
Andrew

Nowt to do with the cold mate,
In my opinion,and I'm new to all this citroen hydraulic..magicry

I've had coilers,mainly ford, for nearly 30 years.

And coil springs were fine,

But you look on any coil sprung forum nowadays, and there's loads of springs snapping...

I had it with my last ford,mundaneo, bought it for 200 quid, because both! front springs had snapped! Factors,cheap : )

poor metal I'd say...

And you never, change just one spring...false economy,apart from one being 'better/newer', than the other one..trust me

[Kowalski]

Coil springs are made of steel and they rust so that once they lose enough strength because of corrosion fatigue and the next big bump in the road can finish them off.

In recent years cars have been getting heavier and they've been getting larger wheels and sportier suspension, springs have been getting smaller (more compact) and stiffer, so the inevitable has resulted.

[andmcit]

Interesting opinions. I must say, I've always been brought up to believe
ANY change to a component on the brakes or suspension at one corner
is ALWAYS recommended to the opposite side too.

Certainly with Mcstrut inserts, springs, brakes and the like back to my Pop's
Hillman Avenger >Rover SD1 DIY fettling days and now YES, even spheres which
I've been 'volunteered' to do for him nowadays...

I was curious if this new habit more modern cars seem to have developed
is now being treated as routine and only one side needs the 'fix'. Certainly
doesn't feel right and smacks to me of manufacturing down to the raw bones
to save pennies with a deliberate short term view as all car makers now
don't have the 50/60's attitude of brickouthouse over engineered built to last
attitude any more. I realise it's not just cars any more. Finally a 40 years
old central heating back boiler gave up it's last gasp and had a newfangled
super efficient replacement slotted in instead but any guarantee or chance
of longevity is discussed in just years, not the decades of the original that
would dent the ground if dropped from an upstairs window, not shatter like
a modern mobile phone...

progress eh? They don't make them like they used to!
Sh!t, I'm starting to sound old.

Something to do with the profit motive and shareholders!
Short termism now the order of the day.

Andrew

[myglaren]

It's called "Value Engineering" but to whom is it valuable?

[Kowalski]

It's called "Value Engineering" but to whom is it valuable?

Its valuable to everybody. Manufactured products are far cheaper now so that everybody can afford them, it also means that people can afford to buy new rather than having to buy second hand.

In the past people made things last longer because they HAD to last longer.

[myglaren]

The downside being that useful lifetime is curtailed and many things are no longer easily repairable.

The example I have is wiper motors, that could be dismantled and worn components replaced simply and cheaply, where now most wiper motors are pressed together precluding being dismantled for simple repairs and the only option is replacement, so around £60 rather than £3 for a set of brushes.

So there is an initial value to the manufacturer and the customer but when the item fails the value is to the manufacturer, who supplies a new motor at full cost, through the dealer who adds his value and the customer loses.

It is as cachaciero has proffered on several occasions that cars are built to last 100,000 miles, after that they begin to fail, sometimes disastrously. Lots will plod on beyond that but the majority begin a rapid decline.

[addo]

... it also means that people can afford to buy new rather than having to buy second hand.

From a semi-philosophical POV I'd argue this is actually borrowing more heavily against the future as we still essentially live beyond a sustainable mean.

[Kowalski]

It is as cachaciero has proffered on several occasions that cars are built to last 100,000 miles, after that they begin to fail, sometimes disastrously. Lots will plod on beyond that but the majority begin a rapid decline.

I think most cars will last well beyond 100k miles if they are maintained properly. What happens to a lot of cars as they get older and fall in value is that people will no longer invest time and money in keeping them maintained and fully operative. Some people find that a certain thing on the car breaks or stops working and they don't get it fixed so that the car gathers a few faults, maintainance stops completely and then the car is driven into the ground and scrapped.

The two Xantias I had were 12 and 15 years old when I got rid of them, both did far more than 100k miles and neither one was worn out, they both could have been driven another 100k miles if somebody was willing to maintain them properly whilst they drove them!

I'd have said that neglect, age and corrosion are what limit cars useful lives rather than mileage.

From a semi-philosophical POV I'd argue this is actually borrowing more heavily against the future as we still essentially live beyond a sustainable mean.

Its true that our consumer culture is unsustainable, wage prices in China will eventually go up and many consumer goods will become more expensive. When that happens, we'll all be trying to get longer lives out of things that have limited design lives and extending them won't be easy.

[dnsey]

I'd have said that neglect, age and corrosion are what limit cars useful lives rather than mileage.

Yes, I agree, by and large. But look at the servicing schedule for, say, a 1960s vehicle, compared with today's models. Whilst there have certainly been some advances in technology (sealed bearings, improved oil and filters, better rust protection...)which have reduced the work required, if a modern car was serviced as thoroughly as an old-timer, it would undoubtedly last much longer. But what price proper maintenance? Time is money more than ever before, whether the owner carries out the work himself or delegates it. The choice is largely up to the individual, but most choose the 'disposable' route.
Taking the case in point, assuming that springs are indeed failing due to corrosion, at one time the manufacturer would no doubt have specified that they should be greased every 3000 miles. Many of us would be happy to do so ourselves, but I suspect that the majority of owners would baulk at the cost and inconvenience of having a garage do so alongside a long list of similar jobs. Car reviews these days place some emphasis on servicing costs, which at one time 'were what they were', and an accepted part of ownership.
Also, having managed to get the springs to last perhaps 15 years, would it really be a good idea on today's roads to use 'spring assisters', as we used to, to counteract the sag, and get a few years further life from them? Better, perhaps, that such components do have a somewhat limited life.
Like it or not, times have changed, in a more complex manner than might at first be evident.