New tyres or Part worn?

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 19 Jan 2011, 08:08

birksy wrote:They are XL/reinforced. Is that a problem with the C5?

Not a problem so much, but as its an XL tyre the sidewall is much stiffer, so it has less give, therefore a worse ride and more shocks go into the steering and suspension.

I say this because some C5s ive driven have had chattery steering, slight play somewhere in the steering rack which makes a chattering over bumps. Ive found this to be caused by or aggravated by stiff tyres.

OUr 52reg SX C5 was starting to do this, mainly because i had the wheels from a previous C5 estate fitted to it when i took it to france, the tyres had a very stiff sidewall. Which did seem to cause the raqttle in the steering. Back on its Michelin tyres the rattle had gone, but when i fitted it with some Goodyear Duragrips the rattle appeared. So i swapped the wheels front to back and it now hs Goodyear EWxcellence on the front, which give a better ride and no rattle.

Ive looked into this rattle, it seems to be something high on the rack which gets a bit of play, supposidly squeazing it together solves it. But for now ours is silent as its soft tyres help.

Also it stands to reason that thing like drop links etc will wear faster with harder tyres. I like soft sidewall tyres, though i did originally change from michelins as i thought the walls were too soft, but ive now returned to them as they are superior.

The C5 shouldnt have XL tyres fitted, though im not sure if this would effect insurance in the same way speed rating migh.

I generally favour softer sidewall tyres and usually run the pressures at a few PSI lower on the front. Only 3psi lower than standard with the 16" wheel'd C5s.

f00lzz · Post by **f00lzz** » 19 Jan 2011, 08:39

As an ex Dunlop employee I tend to lean towards Dunlop Tyres... I happen to think they are good tyres. An expensive part of tyre manufacture is tyre research and producing the correct compound mix. Many Budget Tyre manufacturers avoid these costs by 'buying in' ready mixed compounds (from the likes of Dunlop/Goodyear etc) also many of the tyre moulds that they use are 'old pattern' moulds again from the likes of Dunlop/Goodyear but have the mould side plates changed to their own brand. So effectively you have a tyre which is produced with the same/similar compound and tyre mould as a 'known brand' tyre.

davewithington · Post by **davewithington** » 19 Jan 2011, 11:44

Whichever tyre you choose, don't fit Chinese.

My Xantia came with four new Chinese tyres ("just had 4 new tyres guv"), and they were rubbish. No wet grip at all, causing the ABS to cut in at a wet junction in Crewe, meaning I sailed thorugh the red light to stop half way across. Luckily nothing was coming my way.

I'd experienced this before on a company Mondeo a couple of years ago, which also came with Cinese tyres, whcih i complained about to the MD. After he'd been out in the car ("can't be that bad") he had all four tryes changed.

I Put a pair of Falken on the front which are excellent, even gripping quite well in the recent snow. The back tyres are still Chinese, which I will change when funds permit (I'm out of work again). Had the weird experience of rear end slide on snow as the back tyres gave up and went for a Chinese half way through a slow corner.

jgra1 · Post by **jgra1** » 19 Jan 2011, 12:20

yep I like Falkens..

going for a chinese while cornering Dave ? you're not driving fast enough

davewithington · Post by **davewithington** » 19 Jan 2011, 13:15

Look, it was snowing, and my rallying days are over......

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 19 Jan 2011, 14:54

f00lzz wrote:As an ex Dunlop employee I tend to lean towards Dunlop Tyres... I happen to think they are good tyres. An expensive part of tyre manufacture is tyre research and producing the correct compound mix. Many Budget Tyre manufacturers avoid these costs by 'buying in' ready mixed compounds (from the likes of Dunlop/Goodyear etc) also many of the tyre moulds that they use are 'old pattern' moulds again from the likes of Dunlop/Goodyear but have the mould side plates changed to their own brand. So effectively you have a tyre which is produced with the same/similar compound and tyre mould as a 'known brand' tyre.

Well that doesn't explain how many budget brands are totally hopeless for grip, especially wet grip when a good compound is needed.

Budget brands do not use the same rubber compund, silica is what is needed for a tyre to perform well in wet conditions. Maybe due to cost i dont know, but budget brands are often very iffy in the wet.

If you could buy an old Goodyear/Dunlop etc but with a budget name printed on the side for half the cost, everyone would! There must be vital differences which make the normal premium tyre perform far better than the budget copy.

There was a recentl TV program, where a Continental tyre was tested for braking in the wet, a budget brand with an adentical looking tyre was tested, the budget tyre stopped 3 car lengths after the Continental had already stopped. Could be life or death, or an accident or near miss. Huge difference, just because of the compound.

dnsey · Post by **dnsey** » 19 Jan 2011, 16:09

Whichever tyre you choose, don't fit Chinese.

It still depends on the brand, though.
I ran Goodride Chinese-made budget tyres for several years with no problems at all, and I understand that a lot of taxi firms use them too. The mobile tyre fitter who changed them for me reconed that they weren't bad (and it would have been in his interest to relate horror stories in order to sell me something else).
I only changed when I realised that top brand tyres could be obtained cheaply, as I mentioned above.

birksy · Post by **birksy** » 19 Jan 2011, 17:29

F00lzz speaks the truth.

Many of the mid range brands are off shoots of the bigger parent or have alliances like car manufacturers do with the lesser brands using older tread designs and whatever.

Barum Bravuris are Continental

Tigar are linked with Michelin

Ceat is Pirelli

...so I believe.....

Kumhos all round, Ecsta KU31 XL and they feel good.

two fronts for the price of one premium tyre.

Kuhmo are fitted as original equipment to some cars and whatever comes with the car as 'standard' is I'm sure a deal between manufacturer and supplier. i.e What price can we have these tyres at if weput them down as Original Equipment. Likewise the oil n fluid tie ins.

The tyres are W rated which means I can't do more than 168mph.

I was a bit worried when you mentioned insurance but the wheels are standard and I'm sure if there were an issue the sellers of tyres would be in line for litigation as they recommend tyres to the make of car.

Kumho are doing the control tyre for F3 and are involved in Motorsport so I like to think they know what they're doing rather than the cheaper tyres being knocked out for a low price.

Bottom line is no linglong or Wanli as these are definitely garbage...I think...allegedly....

f00lzz · Post by **f00lzz** » 19 Jan 2011, 17:50

[quote="Citroenmad

Well that doesn't explain how many budget brands are totally hopeless for grip, especially wet grip when a good compound is needed.

It wasn't my intention... just stating facts as I know them!

Budget brands do not use the same rubber compund, silica is what is needed for a tyre to perform well in wet conditions. Maybe due to cost i dont know, but budget brands are often very iffy in the wet.

Obviously you are more knowledgeable about tyre compounds than me, where did you get your experience?

If you could buy an old Goodyear/Dunlop etc but with a budget name printed on the side for half the cost, everyone would! There must be vital differences which make the normal premium tyre perform far better than the budget copy.

I actually worked in the 'mould engineering division' at Dunlop and have first hand seen the replacement sidewall plates being engraved with new names. But hey what do I know!!

There was a recentl TV program, where a Continental tyre was tested for braking in the wet, a budget brand with an adentical looking tyre was tested, the budget tyre stopped 3 car lengths after the Continental had already stopped. Could be life or death, or an accident or near miss. Huge difference, just because of the compound.

[/quote]

This can occur between premium brands even... tyre tread design and compound differences dependent on tyre requirements i.e. wet grip versus tyre wear, can all influence such a test.

f00lzz · Post by **f00lzz** » 19 Jan 2011, 17:53

I have just fitted four Dunlop Fast Response (£79ea) to the V6... so far so good, will keep you informed.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 19 Jan 2011, 19:25

f00lzz wrote:
It wasn't my intention... just stating facts as I know them!

Obviously you are more knowledgeable about tyre compounds than me, where did you get your experience?

I actually worked in the 'mould engineering division' at Dunlop and have first hand seen the replacement sidewall plates being engraved with new names. But hey what do I know!!

This can occur between premium brands even... tyre tread design and compound differences dependent on tyre requirements i.e. wet grip versus tyre wear, can all influence such a test.

Im sorry, I didn't mean to offend you or appear that I know more than you, I don't, definitely not now you have stated where you worked.

I suppose i was asking questions within my post, as budget tyres dont appear to ever be as good as the real premium brand?

I know some tyre manufactures swap old moulds, I think Kleber is part of Michelin, I once had a set of Klebers on a car which looked very similar to the Michelin Energy tyre, it performed very well too. Though id class Kleber as a mid range tyre.

So with the old Dunlop moulds there was no difference in tread pattern or compound when it swapped to a budget make? Do you know what make that was?

Im intrigued now

Tigar tyres seem pretty awful, but they are linked to Michelin, they dont look as if they share any Michelin tread patterns and the ones ive had the experience of had a very hard sidewall and compound, not something normally related to Michelin tyres.

Some budget tyres must be very distant relations ...?

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 19 Jan 2011, 19:39

birksy wrote:
Kumhos all round, Ecsta KU31 XL and they feel good.

two fronts for the price of one premium tyre.

Kuhmo are fitted as original equipment to some cars and whatever comes with the car as 'standard' is I'm sure a deal between manufacturer and supplier. i.e What price can we have these tyres at if weput them down as Original Equipment. Likewise the oil n fluid tie ins.

The tyres are W rated which means I can't do more than 168mph.

I was a bit worried when you mentioned insurance but the wheels are standard and I'm sure if there were an issue the sellers of tyres would be in line for litigation as they recommend tyres to the make of car.

Bottom line is no linglong or Wanli as these are definitely garbage...I think...allegedly....

Kumhos are very good tyres generally, ive used them a fair few times and have been impressed with them.

The KU31 looks quite a sporty looking tyre, have you seen you can get these with colour which creates coloured smoke? When you spin the wheels coloured smoke pours from the wheel arches!..... Obviously popular in the drifting scene!

I have read that speed rating can effect insurance, ive not checked my insurance about this, though it could be possible that XL rated can effect things, though seems unlikely.

Different tyres work with some cars and not so well with others. So Wanli or Linglong might well be a reasonable tyre for some. Though i doulw have little faith in them as a grippy tyre.

Is it not the research and development which goes into premium brands / mid range brands to push tyre technology forward which increases the price?

Many mid range tyres are very good, such as most Kumhos, Avons, Toyos etc.

birksy · Post by **birksy** » 20 Jan 2011, 17:04

I think premium brands charge what they can because they're premium.

I had a friend who was a sales exec at BP, sold oil to manufacturers and all sorts. He had the Jag and Vauxhall plants on his account.

He swore blind the Duckhams, Mobil and BP were all the same oil just in a different colour 'can' (words escape me as the 'can' is plastic?.)

You'd pay a different price for each brand although the oils the same.

I wouldn't be surprised if some tyre brands are made with a specific market in mind. I mean I can't imagine countrys with a high death rate due to road collisions are ones where safety sells? Maybe its price first ?

The one thing that did confuse me are the DOT markings on a tyre. This suggested to me that they were type approved by Her Majesty's Department Of Transport.

I'm reading now that its the american DOT. If so that would explain a lot as to the wide ranging poor performance of tyres.

We should be looking for an E4 marking which I understand means the tyre is tested as high quality by the European Regulatory Authorities.

I'm not clear if tyres have to have an E4 to be used on UK roads.

stedmancinques · Post by **stedmancinques** » 20 Jan 2011, 17:26

There is an old saying, 'You only get what you pay for'
I would only ever use top brand tyres, as I am keen that my family and I get the best chance of living to a ripe old age. I always fit Michelins, and would use part worn Michelins in preference to new budgets. Did buy a GSA once with Firestones on, it was horrendous in the wet, but another GSA had Vredesteins, and they were as good as Michelins, imho.
Cheers,

SwissSPEC · Post by **SwissSPEC** » 20 Jan 2011, 17:55

I've never liked Michelin, in the dry they are ok, but in the wet i've always found them wanting. They do wear remarkably well though, perhaps its because they don't have all that much grip

I'm now on vredesteins, cheaper & are superb in the wet, we'll see how long they last.

I've had experience of ultra cheap tyres (ditchfinders), it's not a particularly nice experience to be overtaking a car (in the wet), realising that someones pulled out, slamming on the anchors (with abs) & the car is still overtaking the car i wanted to stop overtaking in the 1st place, luckily for everyone concerned it all ended without incident

Absolute death trap is how i'd describe the different tyres fitted, infact i think there was only 1 axle set that even matched

I now always drive with 4 matching tyres as i don't want to have the worry of different tyres having different levels of grip, one day you might wish you'd spend a bit more money on some decent tyres.

I always tend to look up the independent tyre tests that you can click onto on mytyres website, its only a guide, but i've had decent results when trusting it so far.