C5 Wot do I do with it?

Post by **myglaren** » 15 Jan 2011, 11:10

addo wrote:I'll spare Andrew from getting worked up enough to make the point:

"C5 Styling" is an oxymoron.

It's the new Scorpio

I was in a dealer buying a keyfob for my Xantia when I first saw one. I had of course heard about the Xantia replacement but not seen one and thought they had gone completely mad producing this huge bulbous blob after the sleek lines of the CX and Xantia.

I did sit in it and liked it on the inside (an Exclusive).

I'm a bit more resigned to it's appearance now, mainly due to it being mostly parked beside a neighbour's Xafira. Looks positively elegant beside that heap.

Just been out in the SAAB, that does have a powerful grin factor but I still prefer to drive the C5 which when all is working as it should is nearly as quick as the SAAB.

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 15 Jan 2011, 11:13

Well some interesting thoughts, i'll comment on some of them as I see it.

1./ Secondhand pump, yes i have thought of that and actually have an offer of one which I may well take up but there is a potential "gotcher" with this.

As I understand it the pump electronics are VIn coded which would mean that a secondhand pump wouldn't work. A potential solution to this is to swap the electronics board between my pump and the new one, but that will only work if the board I have is not the defective item.

2/ BBA -Reman yes intend talking to them Monday, however there are still the issues of VIN code locks and on their web site the price exchange is POA, looking at other items that they have priced making a rough guess the price is likely to be 50-75% the cost of a new pump from Citroen and I don't believe that BBA-Reman do / can overhaul the mechanical bits of the pump.

3/ Pleides story, interesting, as last night went out opened the car pump ran suspension came up. However I have had the Maxi fuse blow a couple of times this year usually after doing things where the pump has had to run a lot, always put this down to marginally rated fuse and heat accumulation due to higher than normal duty cycles.

4/ Worn Brushes is something in my mind but with this fault I would expect the motor not to run BUT NOT to blow the fuse.

Anyway now the Lexia laptop has had it's battery charged time to go out in the rain and dig a bit

more later..

cachaciero

cachaciero

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 15 Jan 2011, 11:53

Worn brushes wouldn't normally blow the fuse, but if there's electronics there as well, then that might complicate the situation. If the brushes are accessible then you can sometimes use a bit of extra pressure on them as a diagnostic tool. Help the spring, in other words.

If you can see any boards containing electronics, then inspect them for cracked PCB tracks or cracked/dry solder joints. It sounds like an intermittent failure. It could just be a bad connection somewhere.

Paul

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 15 Jan 2011, 13:04

Here's another theory:-

Maybe something is putting an excessive mechanical load on the pump motor. The extra load will cause the pump to take more current than usual and blow the Maxi fuse.

There may also be a thermal fuse buried in the windings of the motor. If the motor gets very hot due to excessive load then maybe this fuse is tripping. It might be of the type that auto-resets when cold, or it may be a "trip once and remain open" type. It's likely to be buried right in the windings and probably not something that's replaceable.

I was thinking of a similar situation that occurs with motorised valves on central heating systems. If the valve starts seizing up, it puts the motor under extra load, and this can blow the motor windings or the mains fuse.

Maybe the hydraulic pump itself is starting to seize and loading the motor. Another possibility is that there's something wrong with the hydraulic system (a leak?) which causes the pump the operate continuously instead of intermittently and this might cause overheating of the windings, if the motor is only designed for intermittent operation.

This is just speculation, to give you some more possibilities to think about.

EDIT:

I've just found this post from somebody who had a corroded wire inside the hydraulic pump motor, next to a vent hole, causing the suspension to sink:-

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 0f42e62f64

Paul

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 15 Jan 2011, 14:28

Well today appears to be working correctly. Had the lexia on, said Permanent Fault pump motor open or short circuit wtf*?* it's difficult to imagine two conditions which could be more diametrically opposed and it doesn't have the intelligence to discriminate which...#**#.

Cleared the fault and all seems to be working correctly,, shades of the Pleides story.

Anyhow it has given me a chance to play around with ride height calibration which has thrown up some interesting numbers as regards front / back interaction.

Loading of pump causing fuse to blow? have wondered about that but it's difficult to see what could cause that except possibly for the micky mouse accumulator built into the pump, low gas pressure in this might explain it but I can see no way of checking this, maybe Pleides might have a comment on this.

As regards other possible problems in the electronics in the unit..well I have never been happy that softmode really is softmode, yet the lexia throws nothing up, the centre spheres /regulators can be driven from the Lexia and appear to work as they should yet.......

If someone local had a good Pug 407SW for sale they might just do some business this weekend

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 15 Jan 2011, 14:33

I just edited my post above to include the following text, but as we posted at the same time, you may not have seen the extra text I added, so here is another copy:-

I've just found this post from somebody who had a corroded wire inside the hydraulic pump motor, next to a vent hole, causing the suspension to sink:-

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 0f42e62f64

Paul

andmcit · Post by **andmcit** » 15 Jan 2011, 14:45

I'd say get another 2.5 VSX Xm Demag!! But I would say that wouldn't I!?
Or how about:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1996-CITROEN-XM-E ... 0612370210

A 407SW - dodgy car usually driven by a dodgy driver and I've often
reflected on what SW could really stand for to describe them both.

Guy I work with couldn't realised his mistake too late and couldn't wait to
get rid of his 407SW but it took years to finally get rid of it as it was
permanently in a semi disabled state so unsellable.

He's a different man now he's finally seen the back or it and it's stopped
draining his finances - he told me it was the worst car he's ever had.
As an interesting aside, his neighbour had an identical car and enviously
commented on his new VW Passat as he was in the same boat unable to
get rid of theirs and was truly amazed he'd mananged to get it sold on
in a [momentary] state of actually working correctly...

Andrew

andmcit · Post by **andmcit** » 15 Jan 2011, 15:02

myglaren wrote:
addo wrote:I'll spare Andrew from getting worked up enough to make the point:

"C5 Styling" is an oxymoron.

It's the new Scorpio

I couldn't resist - sorry Chris.

I truly cannot see one redeeming factor with the mk 1 or 2 C5. Honestly.
It's frumpy body, is bloated and awkward from any angle with a strong dose
of the Scorpo's about it's gawky frontal appearance - Citroen went from
slim svelte sharp looking headlights of the Xant to ones that cover far
too much prime real estate on the front and manage to make it look even
more cross-eyed and plain ugly than a Scorpio. There's no coherence in the
styling and it really does look like a committee car with different teams
working on different ends of the car. I truly do genuinely hate it.

Professionally, as a designer, I feel ill looking at one and it really offends
me. Sure, the lines improved somewhat on the mk2 but the remaining
heaviness and blandness of the design fails to have the impact of the C6,
which is similarly 'heavy', in it's tumble-home. Ham-fisted best sums up a C5.

I'm disappointed both because it was supposed to be a big "Citroen"
and the fact they had the gall to replace not one great car but two with
it THEN trying to fob it off onto poor Xm and Xantia drivers. A real low
point in Citroen's recent history and this takes into account the Xsara...

this manages to look quite petite and light in comparison with the C5
and it's no oil painting and does bland well too.

Andrew

dnsey · Post by **dnsey** » 15 Jan 2011, 15:26

Had the lexia on, said Permanent Fault pump motor open or short circuit wtf*?* it's difficult to imagine two conditions which could be more diametrically opposed and it doesn't have the intelligence to discriminate which...#**#.

My guess is that the actual condition is 'Current supplied to pump, but no pressure increase detected'.

It certainly sounds as though a thermal fuse is operating, as has been suggested. I'd be surprised if the Maxi fuse is rated that marginally - it would have to be able cope with the pump starting up under load with the LDS at maximum viscosity (winter in cold climates). Bear in mind that ordinary fuses are rated at their holding current, and the blowing condition is a function of overcurrent and time - in other words, there needs to be a sustained minor overload or a sudden heavy surge. The first of these is just what would trip a thermal cutout. I'd guess that the pump's probably not continuously rated, but it should surely be capable of running for as long and as often as any normal conditions would demand.

Another (less likely) possibility is a shorted turn in the motor's armature, which would cause overheating, and might blow the fuse if the commutator was in the 'right' position on starting. It's possible to check for this by scoping a square wave fed to the winding, and watching for damping, but this would. of course mean substantial dismantling.

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 15 Jan 2011, 15:49

One diagnostic technique you can use with motors is to smell the windings. If the motor has been getting very hot, then the varnish insulating the windings might have melted and/or burned. You can usually smell this if you put your nose right against the windings. The method is more commonly used by TV repairmen (for transformers) and by washing machine repairmen (on motors) but may be of use on cars as well. It's useful as a double-check, to help confirm that the part that you suspect really is faulty, before you spend money on a replacement.

Paul

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 15 Jan 2011, 16:21

Is the Maxi fuse that you fitted the correct type of fuse? Maybe the pump blows standard fuses but works ok with Citroen supplied ones. Maybe it's a special type of fuse.

Paul

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 15 Jan 2011, 16:48

Paul (the weaver) Yes thanks for the link I went and had a look, pity the OP didn't take some photo's of the internals, and your comments about electrical burning smell maybe valid in this case I thought yesterday evening that I caught a whiff of electrical burning but couldn't be sure.

dnsey
Yes I suspect that your diagnosis is correct but given the way the electronics work in the ECU it should have been a minor task to monitor directly on the motor to establish which of the two conditions it was.

Fuse blow conditions a function of overcurrent and time, to be pedantic fuse blow is actually a temperature which is of course the starting temperature + heating proportional to current and time. The time to blow at a given current will depend on how hot the fuse was to start with i.e a hot fuse will blow quicker than a cold one for the same overcurrent. The Maxi Fuses are not well cooled so if a fuse value has been chosen on the basis that it doesn't carry current for more than say 15 seconds every ten minutes when it will have time to cool, then it may not last when run for 40 seconds every 2 minutes ~(that's about the time it takes to cycle the suspension). I am not saying that this is the way it is just the way it may be.

cachaciero

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 15 Jan 2011, 17:14

andmcit wrote:I'd say get another 2.5 VSX Xm Demag!! But I would say that wouldn't I!?
Or how about:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1996-Citroën-XM-E ... 0612370210

A 407SW - dodgy car usually driven by a dodgy driver and I've often
reflected on what SW could really stand for to describe them both.

Guy I work with couldn't realised his mistake too late and couldn't wait to
get rid of his 407SW but it took years to finally get rid of it as it was
permanently in a semi disabled state so unsellable.

He's a different man now he's finally seen the back or it and it's stopped
draining his finances - he told me it was the worst car he's ever had.
As an interesting aside, his neighbour had an identical car and enviously
commented on his new VW Passat as he was in the same boat unable to
get rid of theirs and was truly amazed he'd mananged to get it sold on
in a [momentary] state of actually working correctly...

Andrew

Theres only two things wrong with it, it's petrol and it's an estate, now if it was a 2.1 auto

Now as regards the 407SW it has the same combination of engines and drive trains as the Citroen range it's suspension and underpinnings are the same as the latest C5 and come to that the C6. Now given that all the sub-assemblies which go to making both Pugs and Cits come from the same suppliers why should the Pugs be any more or less reliable than it's Citroen counterpart? Or is it that the problems which beset the 407 (whatever they are what are they?) are going to beset the C5III as well the 407 having come first.

cachaciero

andmcit · Post by **andmcit** » 15 Jan 2011, 17:21

OK:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0547244868

CHEAPS CHEAPS!

Broken rear 1/4 glass a turn off so will go for no money...

...but not insurmountable though, depending on who you know!
I'llpick the brains of my work colleague to get the full chapter
and verse but it near broke him, mentally and financially; whilst
not a DIY'er he's always savvy to know who to take it to and
how things work as opposed to being a point and pay car ignoramus.

Andrew

birksy · Post by **birksy** » 15 Jan 2011, 20:52

Am I alone in coming to terms with the look of my C5? Its awkward at some angles and photos do not do it justice. Mines a VTR with mesh & 'spoiler' in wikid redd.

I could drive a BMW X1 and have the same effect as it too is well ugly except its circa £25k.

Now who looks daft?