Xantia S1 Cold Start (and I mean Cold!) Rough Idle.

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Xantia S1 Cold Start (and I mean Cold!) Rough Idle.

Post by Rhothgar »

The weather here in Austria is variable at the moment. Ranging from bottled water in the passenger footwell freezing overnight to not freezing.

We have been down to -15 deg C but normally it is not that bad at the moment.

Car was fine on the drive and appears to perform smoothly when hot.

The last few mornings the car has been variable in its starting.

The day before yesterday I think was -12 deg C at 9am so must have been pretty low overnight. Boy! Did the car struggle to start? Started then died - any number of times! We were getting concerned that it would never start until the weather warmed up a tad.

Gave the primer bulb a few squirts. Still it struggled!

That was the remnants of the French diesel from the last fill-up.

It was hunting as though it has an air leak but it idles fine when hot.

There appear to be various 'grades' of diesel here where they have additives to take it down to -30 deg C or so they say.

Yesterday was far better. Started first time but hunted. Yesterday was around -2 deg C from memory.

We filled up yesterday with some -26 deg C diesel (allegedly).

The car started fine this morning and then started hunting after about 2 minutes. It is also very smoky at present. Maybe just the air temperature that makes it look worse.

Gave it a nice bit of rev limiter for 10 seconds. Have you ever seen black snow?

We are probably going to give it a drive up to Salzburg this afternoon over a few mountains but I know it will be the same tomorrow.

Any ideas?
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Post by Peter.N. »

I would initially have said glow plugs but if it goes into hunting and smoking mode after it has started, sounds like low compression on one or more cylinders, most likely cause lack of valve clearance. Whitish blue smoke is an indication of incomplete or non combustion.

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Post by Rhothgar »

Thanks for the reply.

The smoke goes away after it is warm so presumably the valve clearances are overly tight hence smoking when cold and no smoke when warm? That would make sense.

Car is averaging 45 mpg at moment which isn't too bad considering the overall low ambient air temperature and altitude we are at.

That's another thing I forgot to mention. Base altitude in the village here is 1022m. so nearly higher than Ben Nevis and that's just a peak!

Not sure if diesel's rely heavily on stoichiometric ratios - they must do! Car is therefore getting less oxygen than it is used to hence stronger mixture.
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Post by HDI »

Diesels are regulated purely by fuel delivery, there is no air throttle valve so there is no stoichiometric fuel air ratio.
If it is hunting when cold there are a number of possible causes, waxing fuel due to low temps is the number 1 suspect. What is most likely happening is the fuel filter is plugging due to waxing fuel and this will take a time to clear after the engine starts. There is a fuel pre-heater but it requires hot coolant before it will function hence the time taken for the smoke and hunting to stop.
If the problem has only occurred with the cold climate there probably isn't an engine fault as such.
Another issue could be water in the fuel or the filter. this will freeze and cause the same problem.
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Post by Peter.N. »

From your description it sounds as though its missing on one cylinder when cold, fuel starvation/air will just make it run erratically not a regular miss. Low compression can cause this, it doesn't need so much compression to fire when hot so will probably run OK.

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Post by RichardW »

Diesel waxing, plus down on one glow plug I'd have thought. I once started left my TD idling when it was -8 or something, and after a few minutes it started to run rough and make a lot of white smoke. My guess is tha the plugs had switched off, but becuase the car had only been idling it wasn't really hot enough to run cleanly without.

UK Diesel spec filter plug point is only -12 - our HDis struggled to start when it had been down to -15 overnight a couple of weeks ago!
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Post by VertVega »

It would be wise to use under engine cover and also cover the front mask.
Here is an example where I made a custom mask on the pic (a Xantia for sale from a website):
(Some air inlet is left on both ends.)
Image
In mine there is a black mask cover and it doesn't spoil the outlook at all 8-) .

In Scandinavia Diesel spec filter plug point is around -32 during winter :roll: and pulled even more down if necessary.
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Post by Rhothgar »

RichardW wrote:Diesel waxing, plus down on one glow plug I'd have thought. I once started left my TD idling when it was -8 or something, and after a few minutes it started to run rough and make a lot of white smoke. My guess is tha the plugs had switched off
Sounds identical to my symptoms!

I thought the glow plugs switch off immediately as soon as the engine fires. I could check that with a voltmeter when I get home but I feel pretty sure someone on here may already know that.

I always remember that I can never get the glow plug out from behind the fuel pump. I think it needs a modified spanner. I therefore know that my car will be at least one glow plug down! As a matter of interest how long do glow plugs generally last?
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Post by Rhothgar »

HDI wrote:Diesels are regulated purely by fuel delivery, there is no air throttle valve so there is no stoichiometric fuel air ratio.

There is a fuel pre-heater but it requires hot coolant before it will function hence the time taken for the smoke and hunting to stop.
Interesting! I remember on an old BX of mine screwing the fuel mixture screw one way and then the other, quite a long way in each direction! didn't appear to do anything. :roll:

I would love to find a local specialist that would properly gauge and set up but even the local Bosch place that reconditions pumps says there is no point in touching anything because if it is running, it is running right! A bizarre attitude I thought. You'd think they'd want to take money off you. The guy is one of those that has forgotten more than one could ever know about diesels. An 'old' boy!

Does the fuel pre-heater exist on Xantia S1's? I suppose that the engine bay warms sufficiently to act as a pre-heater anyway once up to temperature. Well certainly warmer than -15 deg C anyway!
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Post by Xaccers »

Under the fuel filter housingthere is a heat exchanger, looks like a maze if you remove the filter housing, which when it's cold, fuel is diverted through it to be warmed.
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Post by HDI »

RogDodge wrote:Interesting! I remember on an old BX of mine screwing the fuel mixture screw one way and then the other, quite a long way in each direction! didn't appear to do anything. :roll:

I would love to find a local specialist that would properly gauge and set up but even the local Bosch place that reconditions pumps says there is no point in touching anything because if it is running, it is running right! A bizarre attitude I thought. You'd think they'd want to take money off you. The guy is one of those that has forgotten more than one could ever know about diesels. An 'old' boy!

Does the fuel pre-heater exist on Xantia S1's? I suppose that the engine bay warms sufficiently to act as a pre-heater anyway once up to temperature. Well certainly warmer than -15 deg C anyway!
The fuel screw you mention is the fuel delivery adjustment and just controls the maximum amount of fuel the pump will deliver and so the power.

As far as I know all TD Cits before the HDI have an engine coolant heated fuel pre-heater.
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Post by Rhothgar »

RichardW wrote: My guess is tha the plugs had switched off, but becuase the car had only been idling it wasn't really hot enough to run cleanly without.
I have today tested the duration of the glow plugs with a voltmeter. They remain fed for approx. 3.5 minutes after startup.

In my limited experience, Citroens become difficult to start when two or more glow plugs are down. Nigh on impossible to start on one and probably a non-starter on only one glow plug in cold weather.

I reckon, therefore, that my Xantia must have had another glow plug failure since coming over to Austria.

It started fine in the cold in England so this hopefully is the problem and easy to rectify.
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Post by CitroJim »

Rog,

For the difficult glowplug all you need is a cranked (offset) 12mm ring spanner. The so-called special glowplug spanners are no use at all...

Stuff some rags around and behind the pump in case the plug tries to make a bid for freedom when you tease it out...

I've seen several old glowplugs hiding down behind the pump cradle :lol:
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Post by Xantidote »

and beware losing the small nut on the centre terminal - it also likes to make a bid for freedom
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Post by Rhothgar »

Happy New Year to all!

Hi Jim.

Good idea with the rags. Also, I have one of those magnetic telescopic 'aerials'. Brilliant for this kind of thing especially the little centre nut for the last few turns.

It's definitely another glow plug that has to be down, I feel, as the exhaust smoke is non-existent when the engine is hot.

Looks like I need to invest some time in the car when I get back including cleaning height correctors. i know a few pipes are also going to need changing for the MOT and the amount of salt they use on the roads here in Austria is immense.

After reading a few stickies, am also going to check out aircon and front strut tops too!

Thanks to all for their input on this post.
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