Runaway handbrake!

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Linegeist
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Runaway handbrake!

Post by Linegeist »

Warning!
After a fairly fast run today to test the car after replacing the spheres I parked it on a gentle slope facing the underground garage below our house.
About an hour after parking the car there was an almighty CRASH! from the garage. Investigation revealed that the car, despite the handbrake being fully on, had rolled down the incline and impacted one of the main the support pillars for the house. [:0][:0]
The damage to the car is fairly considerable – the frightening thought is that the handbrake, operating on the front discs, is obviously affected by the cooling of the discs after parking. The handbrake was fully on (the first thing I checked) and I counted the ratchet teeth before I moved the car. In the position it was in the car would have been incapable of moving under normal circumstances.
Guess I’ve learned something the hard way…………….
Regards
BC
PS: The sphere swap went like a dream and the car drove superbly – now it’s off the road for the foreseeable…………Ho Hum! [:(]
Jon

Post by Jon »

This is on a BX, yes?
Lots of UK publicity about these runaway incidents just after the Xantia was launched, a few of them "got away", and in the end Citroen bowed to pressure and supplied and fitted a modified handbrake lever (Dealer Recall) which had the first few teeth removed to ensure that the handbrake had to be pulled up really tight!
I know that its also been a problem with the BX, but seemed to attract less publicity.... same thing happened to my Mum and her BX a few years ago, parked on a slight hill with the handbrake on,went indoors, next thing someone was knocking on the door. Her BX had just demolished their garden wall!
She took to leaving it in gear after that.
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vanny
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Post by vanny »

But then again if the vehicle is to be properly secured then it should be left in gear, especially on a hill!! Racing experience tells that put a handbrake on after a fast vigerous drive (brakes on and off all the time), be it front or rear, is best avoided on two grounds. Firstly you will boil the brake fluid as heat is transmitted from disc to pad to brake lines, secondly as this story points out the pads and discs will eventually cool down causing the handbrake to effectively be 'off'.
But this has NOTHING to do with front or back hand brake. The biggest difference with most cars is rear drums which supposedly dont suffer as much.
So the truth of the mater is to secure the vehicle by leaving it in gear. (although on my drive you have to aim the wheels towards the grass when parking, its quite steep and if it rains cars tend to slowly move down the drive (well the lil AX does anyway!!)
Dave Burns
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Post by Dave Burns »

Come on Vanny, the energy or inertia contained in a moving vehicle is generated by turning heat into forward motion, and if you want to stop the car you use the brakes, taking away its energy and in so doing you turn that energy back to heat which is generated by the friction of those brakes.
It naturaly follows that since the front brakes do most of the braking that they will generate the most heat, components of the front brakes will therefore suffer a much greater heat soaking than the rear brakes, and will expand more meaning the potential problem will be more severe for a front wheel parking brake.
Having said that, Citroens are not the only vehicles to have a parking brake acting on the front wheels and you don't hear of them running away, and I have never heard of a rear disc/parking brake setup self releasing because it was applied while the brake was hot.
On the subject of drum brakes, the hot expanded drum actualy does the opposit to a disc setup, as it cools and contracts it exerts an even greater force on the shoes.
The easiest way to avoid this happening to you is to avoid paining the brakes to that extent in the first place, simply not good driving.
Dave
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Post by Linegeist »

Cheers Guys! This is obviously down to idiosyncratic French Engineering ...........
Dave: I assure you I am blameless of 'paining' the brakes - however, if you live in France where I do, the odd swift dab of the pedal is hard to avoid [:p]
I'm mildly surprised this got type approval with such an obvious defect..........
regards
BC
blueboy2001
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Post by blueboy2001 »

I took have been victim of this - my driveway is a fairly steep slope and my Xantia rolled into the back of my new C5. Fortunately it didn't break the paint and the dint was easily removed.
I now always park in gear.
alan s
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Post by alan s »

I was a driving instructor for a while & I'll tell you something; you lot would have been traumatised by the earbashing I would have given you as a learner driver if I'd have caught you leaving these cars parked out of gear.
Recognised practices are; if leaving vehicle on a downwards slope, leave in reverse; on an upward slope in first & an automatic always in "Park." Wheels turned towards the kerb in hilly country.
Couldn't imagine anything more scarey than parking the car, locking the door & standing there helplessly watching the driverless car disappearing into the evening fog.
Strangely enough, the authorities in various countries tend toward some very strange ideas for reason only they could explain. When I had the driving school, I had a few people from the UK come to me to get licences & told me that in those days, it was part of the test over there, that when stopped in traffic (particularly on your licence test) you were expected to hold the car on the footbrake, then pull on the handbrake & knock it out of gear into neutral..the mind boggles at the thought of thousands of motorists all stuffing around trying to find a gear & drop off the handbrake when the lights turned green; little wonder they had enormous traffic snarls at peak hours. By contrast, our licence testers made an issue of the handbake being on but never checked that the car was in gear; many a time I came back to my car only to find it in neutral & the handbrake on 3 notches. Fortunately the testing centre had a flat driveway.
Alan S
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Post by Linegeist »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by alans</i>

I was a driving instructor for a while & I'll tell you something; you lot would have been traumatised by the earbashing I would have given you as a learner driver if I'd have caught you leaving these cars parked out of gear.
Alan S
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Hmmm. Found this snippet on an earlier post:-
............"I took one of my sons for a run in the car yesterday & he thought I was deliberately making the car dive around, so I took my hands off the wheel; within about 3 or 4 seconds, the car dived into the onncoming traffic lanes, I straightened it up, let go & just caught it before it speared off the road on the other side....."
Sound familiar Alan? [:D][:D][:D][:p]
No offence meant and, in the cold light of day, I do feel pretty stupid......
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Post by jeremy »

I think the BX handbrake is a victim of its own eficiency. As all the controls of the car are light and the brake grips with a gentle pull the temptation is not to pull it any harder, partly out of respect for the mechanism. - so when the discs cool the thing releases. I have had this happen to me, I was sitting in the car at the time and it rolled very rapidly, so the effect is of a complete release, not a gradual one.
I now leave the car in gear and it is surprising how often the gear lever is 'tight' even on apparently flat ground.
I had a mk II jaguar with all disc brakes and a magnificent chromed handbrake lever by the driver's door. This had another problem as I found out when I got out on a steep hill one day and accidentally kicked the release button! Yes I did manage to catch it!
The best handbrake I have ever had was on all things a 1946 Austin 8 which had Girling rod operated brakes and thehandbrake operated on the same mechanism and therefore worked on all 4 wheels and would hold on anything.
To return to modern cars some Saabs have a similar system to the BX on the front wheels and I believe are prone to running avay. They are even better as they have a gear lever lock!
Alan - you are right - leaving a car in gear is a cardinal sin so far as the driving tuition industry is concerned. I think its to do with accidentally starting the car in gear as again the advice is to start in neutral with feet off the clutch. For my part when leaving a compression ignition engine in gear I'm grateful for the electric cut out on the pump, the old mechanical one concerned me if the gear was left enegaged and the car rolled - would it start. I was also taught somewhere that I should leave a FORWARD gear engaged if the car was nose down so that if it did move and turn the engine it wouldn't flip the timimg chain off!
Jeremy
alan s
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Post by alan s »

Without diverting too far off the subject:
BC. The item you quote is me alright, but in context I was testing a car on a deserted road looking for a fault. If you want to really hear a story, I'll tell you about the time I end for ended in a speedcar at about 70 MPH & came to rest upside down hanging off the safety fence; now that's worthy of comment, but has nothing to do with parking cars.[:o)][}:)][:D]
Jeremy, sounds like the driving Instruction industry over there still hasn't got it's act together.
Our standard procedure when starting is/was; handbrake on, car in neutral, clutch in & hit the starter. Then car into first gear, trafficate, check mirrors & a quick eye over the shoulder as you take off. If they can't trust a driver to find neutral and then as a safety precaution get them to remember to disengage the clutch before starting, what are they doing giving them licences. I'm presently involved with a Government body looking at changing & hopefully improving road safety for young drivers. I've suggested some very radical ideas some of which have received favourable comment, amongst them the suggestion that auto licences should be limited to disabled drivers only. My argument is that if say an 18 year old doesn't have the co-ordination to operate a hand & 2 out of three pedals at any one time, how will they cope in an emergency even with an auto.
It may not get up, but it is an interesting theory though don't you agree?
Alan S
jeremy
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Post by jeremy »

Alan
I entirely agree. There are changes afoot in our driver education now with a theory test and soon the introduction of hazard recognition videos.
I have mixed feelings about the questionairres as I'm sure there are plenty of people who can't read but who can drive a car safely. howeever I think you can have the questions read.
A couple of weeks ago I was shown some of the questions are was rather concerned that they weren't very challenging. They are of the type - 'you are following a slow moving vehicle on a straight single carriageway road and want to go faser - what do you do - 1 - flash your lights, 2 - sound your horn, - 3- (overtake safely . . .) - 4 - sound your horn and flash your lights.
The latest shock is the suggested introduction of elementary car maintenance as a requirement. If this this brings about an improvement in the legs we sticking out form under cars as their newly qualified owners tackle their own oil changes then I'm all for it but seriously a vague understanding of checking tyre pressures and fluid levels etc cant be a bad thing.
So far as I can see the automatic only licence isn't very popular with the young and those who can't manage a manual are probably so timid that they don't present much of a hazard. The incompetent or faculty impaired elderly are more of a hazard, particularily those who won't concede that they dont know what they are doing.
What is a growing problem here is the not-so young bikers who have appalling accident rates and are terrifying to be around. I recall one day driving near Bournemouth and coming accross hoardes of these idiots who were only happy overtaking when a car was coming in the opposite direction and seemed to think that the best way to overtake was to clean the dirt off my front bumper. I eventually pulled off and waited for about 10 mins until they had cleared, not wanting to end up as a witness at an inquest.
I work with a number of these people,and I suppose half of them have come off, generally in situations which I would have thought should have been avoidable by their own descriptions. They are people who had a small bike in their youth and now they can afford it buy something really large and powerful and having a full bike licence don't need to take another test. Perhaps the answer for them is to introduce re-tests after 3 years to show that just because you can polish it you can't necessarily ride it properly.
You might be interested in our Driving Standards Agency - presumably has a website which tells all - but haven't looked. www.eDREAM.co.uk sell a 2 CD set Driving Theory and Hazard Perception Test 2003 and will have an intro to it on their site.
An interesting subject. Natural selection isn't really the answer as no method can be found to prevent them hurting others.
Jeremy
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Post by Linegeist »

I have to say I agree with that last part. I've had a bike licence since I was 16 .......... my last bike was a cherished Norton Dominator which I only relinquished about 8 years ago.
I had the opportunity to 'pilot' a large Honda racing style bike a few months ago. Phwoar![8D] .......... and it scared me pretty much witless![:I] I'm no fuddy-duddy, but the front wheel on this darned thing could be popped into the air in 3rd gear with a careless flick of the wrist (it did, much to my consternation) and the speed with which the beast responded to rider input far outstripped my ability to react meaningfully to the results. I gave it 4 miles and slowly made my way home. I don't think I'll repeat the experience. I was an accident waiting to happen.
I suspect it's partly an age thing and partly because bikes have evolved into a whole new species. I got the impreesion you don't so much <i>ride</i> a modern bike as fly it at extremely low altitudes. [:D][:D]
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Post by algieuk »

I can suggest something mre scary Alan, Watching a car lurch forward and crushng someone's legs because it had been left in gear and the driver didn't check. Or worse still, being the someone having your legs crushed.
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Post by bencowell »

Haven't Citroen also recalled some C5 to remove some ratchet teeth from the handbrake. I have to pull my C5 handbrake very hard (no mod as it is a late model) and using the footbrake as well helps.
Ben
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Post by hswift »

quote
I had a few people from the UK come to me to get licences & told me that in those days, it was part of the test over there, that when stopped in traffic (particularly on your licence test) you were expected to hold the car on the footbrake, then pull on the handbrake & knock it out of gear into neutral..
unquote
Yes, that's what I was taught and what I still do.
When I was learning to drive in '78 they also told us to use those funny yellow flashing lights at either side of the car to let other road users know our intentions. And we were told to get into the 'correct lane' when coming up to a roundabout. How quaint is that?
Funny thing is, I suspect the Highway Code still makes the same olde worlde recommendations, but no tw*t in this country follows them any more.
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