TUD5 Timing Belt tragic DIY attempt!
Moderator: RichardW
TUD5 Timing Belt tragic DIY attempt!
Hello.
I have a Citroen AX with a 1.5 diesel engine and I set out to change the timing belt myself... but things went wrong and now I don't know how to resynchronize it. Does someone know how to do that?
Also, when trying to start the engine I heard kind of a snap sound.... I'm afraid I had smashed a valve or something.. How bad is that? Can it be ok or it broke? Is it to difficult and expensive to fix?
Thank you for your input is much appreciated.
I have a Citroen AX with a 1.5 diesel engine and I set out to change the timing belt myself... but things went wrong and now I don't know how to resynchronize it. Does someone know how to do that?
Also, when trying to start the engine I heard kind of a snap sound.... I'm afraid I had smashed a valve or something.. How bad is that? Can it be ok or it broke? Is it to difficult and expensive to fix?
Thank you for your input is much appreciated.
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Oh dear, snapping doesn't sound good I would recommend that you always turn the engine over by hand a few times to check it's turning freely, then recheck the timing before attempting to start. I would expect that the engine has places to lock it on the fuel pump, cam and crank pully. I would recommend you grab a haynes, they're usually good for jobs like timing belts.
'96 405 1.6 GLX with 306 GTI engine on Cat cams @ 195bhp
'05 RenaultSport Clio 182 Cup, 102k
'97 406 1.9TD, 314k.
'05 RenaultSport Clio 182 Cup, 102k
'97 406 1.9TD, 314k.
I don't know the details for the TUD5 (although I have done one) but I'm sure somebody will be along who does.
If you tried to start the engine with the timing wrong it's unlikely to be pretty. The sound you heard was almost certainly contact and you are likely to have bent at least one valve- or broken the camshaft/ camshaft bearings. The quick way to find out is to check the valve clearances. Any clearances that are much wider than they should be indicate a bent valve.
If you tried to start the engine with the timing wrong it's unlikely to be pretty. The sound you heard was almost certainly contact and you are likely to have bent at least one valve- or broken the camshaft/ camshaft bearings. The quick way to find out is to check the valve clearances. Any clearances that are much wider than they should be indicate a bent valve.
Richard
No French cars of my own at present.
Care of a 1994 205 D.
No French cars of my own at present.
Care of a 1994 205 D.
- CitroJim
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Although I don't know this engine, I've looked at the pictures of it in Laser and it looks as if the valves are perpendicular to the pistons and operated through shimmed buckets in the same way as the XUD engines.
In fact think of the same happening on an XUD and it applies to the TUD. Therefore you may not have bent any valves but it is likely the cam is broken and maybe some of the cam bearing caps.
Timing is normally carried out by pinning the crank shaft and pinning the camshaft and injection pump. The pump and camshaft sprockets have index holes for this purpose that align with holes in the block behind the sprockets. The crank will be pinned by use of a rod throough a boss on the front of the block that meets with a hole in the flywheel. If the TUD is the same as the petrol TU then this picture shows where it is:
You'll need to remove the cam cover to investigate the cam.
Then you'll need to carefully rotate the crank, pump and cam until it all comes to time and the crank,cam and pump can be pinned. Do it carefully in gentle stages. If the engine goes tight or jams , stop turn the crank backwards and move the cam a bit futher forward before turning the crank forward again. Remove the glowplugs to make the engine easier to turn over.
I've done this on a petrol TU that had lost timing. It was a case of turning crank then cam in small increments until everything lined up. It can be a bit of a long job.
In fact think of the same happening on an XUD and it applies to the TUD. Therefore you may not have bent any valves but it is likely the cam is broken and maybe some of the cam bearing caps.
Timing is normally carried out by pinning the crank shaft and pinning the camshaft and injection pump. The pump and camshaft sprockets have index holes for this purpose that align with holes in the block behind the sprockets. The crank will be pinned by use of a rod throough a boss on the front of the block that meets with a hole in the flywheel. If the TUD is the same as the petrol TU then this picture shows where it is:
You'll need to remove the cam cover to investigate the cam.
Then you'll need to carefully rotate the crank, pump and cam until it all comes to time and the crank,cam and pump can be pinned. Do it carefully in gentle stages. If the engine goes tight or jams , stop turn the crank backwards and move the cam a bit futher forward before turning the crank forward again. Remove the glowplugs to make the engine easier to turn over.
I've done this on a petrol TU that had lost timing. It was a case of turning crank then cam in small increments until everything lined up. It can be a bit of a long job.
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Thanks so much for everyone's help!
Following the procedure indicated in the AX Haynes manual for the 1.4D, I've found the hole for the camshaft alignment but not for the injection pump.. I just can't find it. Now, the crank shaft, I don't know where to look for the alignment hole.. Because I don't know where the flywheel is.... (yes, I still don't know much about engines yet..) But for what I've read the flywheel is next to the clutch, on the other side of the engine?
Thanks again for your help!
Following the procedure indicated in the AX Haynes manual for the 1.4D, I've found the hole for the camshaft alignment but not for the injection pump.. I just can't find it. Now, the crank shaft, I don't know where to look for the alignment hole.. Because I don't know where the flywheel is.... (yes, I still don't know much about engines yet..) But for what I've read the flywheel is next to the clutch, on the other side of the engine?
Thanks again for your help!
- JamesQB
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- x 5
Flywheel is next to clutch. The alignment hole should be at the back of the flywheel. So in his pic, you'd be looking front-on at the engine block, down where transmission joins engine block.
Maybe these will help. Click on them to see full size images. The host does use a pop-up, but it's superior to imageshack because it displays the pictures at the large size I've made them, instead of down-sizing them.
This first one is side view of flywheel, as would be seen looking from front of car at engine/transmission. Shows position of locking pin hole.
This second pic gives instructions on locking sprockets and where the locking holes are.
Maybe these will help. Click on them to see full size images. The host does use a pop-up, but it's superior to imageshack because it displays the pictures at the large size I've made them, instead of down-sizing them.
This first one is side view of flywheel, as would be seen looking from front of car at engine/transmission. Shows position of locking pin hole.
This second pic gives instructions on locking sprockets and where the locking holes are.
Last edited by JamesQB on 11 Dec 2010, 21:03, edited 4 times in total.
Honda Civic 2.2 CDTi 2006
Peugeot 407 2.0 HDi 2007
Peugeot 407 2.0 HDi 2007
- CitroJim
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The AX manual covers the 1.4D I expect, the 1.5D differs in important details so I can understand very well why it all went a bit pear-shaped for you..
Luckily, I have the information here. If you can bear with me for a few moments, I'll do a 'naughty' and scan the relevant pages for you. Don't worry it's for the Pug 106; they're the same engine.
Flywheel is on the Right-hand side of the engine and the pinning boss for the 1.5D is in the same pace as the petrol engine shown in the picture above. Look down by the joint between the engine and gearbox and you'll see it. I used a piece of copper brake pipe to pin the crank as you can see in the picture.
I'll be back in a mo...
Luckily, I have the information here. If you can bear with me for a few moments, I'll do a 'naughty' and scan the relevant pages for you. Don't worry it's for the Pug 106; they're the same engine.
Flywheel is on the Right-hand side of the engine and the pinning boss for the 1.5D is in the same pace as the petrol engine shown in the picture above. Look down by the joint between the engine and gearbox and you'll see it. I used a piece of copper brake pipe to pin the crank as you can see in the picture.
I'll be back in a mo...
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
- CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 49518
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- Location: Paggers
- My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
- x 6156
- Contact:
Here we go, here's the instructions...
TUD5 Cambelt Replacement Page 1
TUD5 Cambelt Replacement Page 2
TUD5 Cambelt Replacement Page 3
Read it all. Page 1 deals generally with both 1.4D and 1.5D engines. Work from page 2 section 19 for refitting instructions specifically applicable to your 1527cc engine...
Strictly, you need a SEEM gauge for tensioning. Be very careful when tensioning the new belt if you do not have a SEEM gauge. A good rule for more or less correct tension is that you can twist the belt between your finger and thumb 45 degrees using moderate pressure. Be careful you don't over tighten or under tighten the belt. Section 24 of the above guide explains it fairly well.
Picture 20.6 on page 1 shows the crank pinning boss.
Good luck and I hope you've escaped without damage.
TUD5 Cambelt Replacement Page 1
TUD5 Cambelt Replacement Page 2
TUD5 Cambelt Replacement Page 3
Read it all. Page 1 deals generally with both 1.4D and 1.5D engines. Work from page 2 section 19 for refitting instructions specifically applicable to your 1527cc engine...
Strictly, you need a SEEM gauge for tensioning. Be very careful when tensioning the new belt if you do not have a SEEM gauge. A good rule for more or less correct tension is that you can twist the belt between your finger and thumb 45 degrees using moderate pressure. Be careful you don't over tighten or under tighten the belt. Section 24 of the above guide explains it fairly well.
Picture 20.6 on page 1 shows the crank pinning boss.
Good luck and I hope you've escaped without damage.
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
- CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 49518
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- Location: Paggers
- My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
- x 6156
- Contact:
That's an excellent diagram JamesJamesQB wrote: This second pic gives instructions on locking sprockets and where the locking holes are.
Sorry, I was so busy gathering information I completely missed your post until after I'd posted mine. Actually, looking at it, your guide and mine lifted from the BoL* complement each other and fill in some gaps in the BoL, or at least make it a bit clearer.
*BoL = Book of Lies AKA Haynes Manual
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
- JamesQB
- Posts: 375
- Joined: 13 Aug 2003, 18:01
- Location: North Wales, United Kingdom
- My Cars: Citroen Xantia 1.8 - I miss this car a lot.
- x 5
I thought they complemented each other as well. It's good to have clear pics or diagrams, as well as step by step instructions given in a clear manner. I need simpleton steps when I work on a car
Talking of BOLs, you've reminded me that I have a fair few to stick on eBay...
Talking of BOLs, you've reminded me that I have a fair few to stick on eBay...
Honda Civic 2.2 CDTi 2006
Peugeot 407 2.0 HDi 2007
Peugeot 407 2.0 HDi 2007
I finally did it!
First of all thanks to all of you! Your help was precious.
Now I have it running and in fact it seems to be running smother and quieter than before... I already drove it quite a bit and everything seems the same or even better! It even pulls better but that has probably something to do with the fact that I just changed to Michelin Energy tires immediately before messing with the timing belt..
It took me and my father the hole saturday, sunday morning and half of the afternoon to figure it all right.. What a nightmare at times... The biggest problem was to find the right hole to align the flywheel. There was another larger hole below the one supposed to be the right one. I couldn't understand where it should be from the picture CitroJim posted because there was so much different stuff on my engine I couldn't make sense of it... But now it all makes sense.
Anyway, I just want to thank you all for being so serviceable! Your help really made the difference!
And I hope this tread can also be of help to others!
First of all thanks to all of you! Your help was precious.
Now I have it running and in fact it seems to be running smother and quieter than before... I already drove it quite a bit and everything seems the same or even better! It even pulls better but that has probably something to do with the fact that I just changed to Michelin Energy tires immediately before messing with the timing belt..
It took me and my father the hole saturday, sunday morning and half of the afternoon to figure it all right.. What a nightmare at times... The biggest problem was to find the right hole to align the flywheel. There was another larger hole below the one supposed to be the right one. I couldn't understand where it should be from the picture CitroJim posted because there was so much different stuff on my engine I couldn't make sense of it... But now it all makes sense.
Anyway, I just want to thank you all for being so serviceable! Your help really made the difference!
And I hope this tread can also be of help to others!