Tires for snow/ice ? Xantia in particular.

[Mandrake]

I have Michelin Aplin Primacies on my XM, and they are superb. This is my 3rd winter using them.

There is no problem using them in all types of winter conditions, even the dry. They are a softer rubber compound than normal Michelins, but they wear very well. I don't think they wear much quicker than regular summer tyres.

That's good to know - I looked at the Aplin line and they do look good, although no doubt being michelins they will be expensive. As well as softer rubber it's clear from looking at them what works well in winter conditions - deep wide grooves creating "isolated" tread blocks which have some flex in them, (which the XM1 has at the sides but not the middle) and plenty of lateral or near lateral grooves to provide some bite in lumpy surfaces, such as partially refrozen snow packs. The same thing that works well in metal road conditions.

[Mandrake]

What they have in common is a very chunky tread pattern with very wide grooves and this seems to be the secret. The Activa Contis have very narrow grooves.

That's the impression I get too Jim - wet and off road conditions seem to be served well by chunky tread blocks where there are enough deep grooves (especially lateral across the tyre) to separate the tread into "tread blocks", so that individual blocks can flex slightly, as well as the grooves providing some bite into rough/loose surfaces.

[Mandrake]

Ive been thinking about getting some winter tyres for my C5.

Winter tyres have more silica in the rubber compound - this increases wet grip and also increases the flexibility of the tyre in cold conditions. Summer tyres get very hard in winter months and therefore provide less grip in cold temperatures. A lot of cheaper brand tyres have much less silica in their compound, which is why generally, cheap tyres are very poor in wet conditions, and why top brands often excel.

In fact, tread design has relatively little to do with grip, its all about the rubber compound. Tread design does obviously have an effect, but without the right compound its useless.

Winter tyres have small sipes in the tread, which increase the flex of the tyre and increases grip on snow and ice. Depper tread depth than summer tyres and more open grooves also help. But again its down to the compund to keep them supple in cold weather.

That's really interesting on the silica content of the tyre to keep it flexible at cold temperatures. Interestingly one of the XM1's key selling features is a silica compound ostensibly for "lower rolling resistance" but that may improve grip in wet and cold conditions too, if the silica compound extends to the outer tread as well as the rolling carcass ?

I would argue that tread pattern does matter too, but in different conditions - snow/ice conditions can come in many forms, and it would seem the optimal tyre characteristics are a bit different for each:

1) Fresh deep snow fall on a dry road - here a narrower tyre is probably better, and one with plenty of deep grooves to allow the soft snow to be channelled away from the tread blocks. Essentially a tyre good on wet roads would excel here, as long as it had silica to keep the tyre soft and supple in the cold conditions.

2) Black ice without snow - I'm guessing that the rubber composition is most important, and where the silica would really come into play to help grip the slippery surface ? Here, a wide tyre is probably better (to maximize contact patch, and minimize the necessary friction per square inch) although you'd still want deep grooves and flexible tread blocks to give better grip on the smooth surface, and prevent aquaplaning if the ice was partially melting.

3) Hard compacted partially thawed and re-frozen snow - which we have a lot of now, which has a consistency not unlike wet gravel, for this condition I think tread pattern is key, and again wide deep grooves are the order of the day, but I think they must be _lateral_ grooves across the tyre to give the tire some bite on the rough yet slippery surface, by way of physical interlocking of the grooves with the rough surface. Circumferential grooves found on a lot of summer tyres would prove useless here.

4) Combinations of the above.

[Mandrake]

Weather's a bit tough up here in Lanarkshire at the moment, isn't it Mandrake??!!

Sure is, we've got a mass snow fall this morning and once again it's chaos on the roads. It's quite interesting watching the cars going by - some cars, almost entirely those with large rims and low profile (presumably hard rubber) tyres are spinning their wheels like crazy just to get moving in the stop start traffic, and yet the very next car behind them, with more conventional looking higher profile tyres is starting and moving ahead without the slightest spin. Just goes to show how much difference tyres do make...

Xantias (well diesels anyway ) are pretty good in the snow - made it Lanark - Grangemouth every day this week. I'm running Toyo Proxes which I was impressed with in the dry, and they seem to be performing well in the snow for a summer tyre. I meant to get some winter tyres, but never got round to it - now you can't get them for love nor money! What ever you do don't buy Pirelli P6000s - they have wide continuous bands round them to improve summer grip, but they are rubbish in the snow (especually when wide tyres are fitted to small cars with light alloy high revving 16V petrol engines). Seems that most people have forgotten / never knew how to drive in the snow though

Note to self - get finger out next summer and get some winter tyres in!

That's quite some journey you do every day...I'm actually almost glad I don't have a car at the moment, although public transport isn't much more reliable, it seems that every time the thermometer dips below 0 degrees trains start getting cancelled due to "signalling and switching" problems... don't get me started on that one!

[Mandrake]

This year I got a pair of used Michelin winter tyres on the back so now I have the complete set.

The difference is amazing.

I would recommend that you just find a set of cheap used steel wheels which should be easy for a Xantia (you might need different bolts as well). Narrow tyres and wheels are actually better in rain, snow and ice because they don't aquaplane and cut through snow better. Get a set of cheap or used winter tyres. Swap back your other wheels in March or so and put them in the shed or whatever.

That's what I thought - get a cheap spare set of rims, put good winter tyres on them, and run them from about November to the end of March.

Of course I have to get a car to put them on first!

[Citroenmad]

Your right, and there are some interesting points, with which i agree. The rubber compound is the most important factor when driving on ice. Tyres with the wrong compound, often cheaper brands without the silica contect, will not grip as well. Silica keeps the rubber grippy and supple, with a poor rubber compound tyres are more like plastic in such cold conditions.

Though what i was getting at is, cheper tyres usually, not always, have a poorer tread rubber compound than the more expensive brands. Often you find cheaper tyres are worse in wet weather, this is because the rubber tends to be harder and more plastic like (obviously not plastic but hopefully you know where im heading) than top branded rubber which has a different and more complient compound.

Interestingly there was a tv program not long ago testing identicle looking tyres. Ive mentioned this on here somewhere already. They took a conti sport tyre and found that a budget brand had copied the tread design almost exactly. Though due to the different rubber compounds the cheaper brand stopped 3 car lengths longer than the genuine conti tyre from 70mph, despite them having the same tread design. Its all down to rubber compound and then the tread design.

Though in snow you do need wide, open groves with small sipes to gain grip, though with the wrong compund they wont work as well.

This is why tyres are not just tyres and you cant purely choose on looks of tread pattern alone.

[Mandrake]

Your right, and there are some interesting points, with which i agree. The rubber compound is the most important factor when driving on ice. Tyres with the wrong compound, often cheaper brands without the silica contect, will not grip as well. Silica keeps the rubber grippy and supple, with a poor rubber compound tyres are more like plastic in such cold conditions.

Though what i was getting at is, cheper tyres usually, not always, have a poorer tread rubber compound than the more expensive brands. Often you find cheaper tyres are worse in wet weather, this is because the rubber tends to be harder and more plastic like (obviously not plastic but hopefully you know where im heading) than top branded rubber which has a different and more complient compound.

I know exactly what you mean, and I admit I hadn't really considered softness of the rubber at low temperature before, (we seldom get below about 4 degrees back home, even at night) but it makes perfect sense.

The same thing applies to soles of shoes - the rubber on some shoes is amazingly grippy even on ice, other shoes with similar tread patterns are a death trap on ice or even just a wet smooth surface, so it must be the rubber composition that's the difference - cheap hard rubber, no grip on smooth/wet/slick surfaces.

Interestingly there was a tv program not long ago testing identicle looking tyres. Ive mentioned this on here somewhere already. They took a conti sport tyre and found that a budget brand had copied the tread design almost exactly. Though due to the different rubber compounds the cheaper brand stopped 3 car lengths longer than the genuine conti tyre from 70mph, despite them having the same tread design. Its all down to rubber compound and then the tread design.

That's quite amazing. I've always believed in paying a bit more for tyres and getting "known good" brands like Michelin, which are always dependable and good quality.

Yes there are some bargains to be found for less in some of the other brands, but only if you're willing to do a lot of trial and error to find them. And if one of the key magic ingredients is the rubber compound - something which is essentially "invisible" and can't easily be ascertained by looking at a tyre, you have a high chance of picking a tyre that looks good but has poor quality rubber compounds...

When I went from a "no name" brand tyre that came on my Xantia, (I think it was "Champiro", which I'd never heard of before) to the XM1's the difference wasn't slight, it was like night and day.

Quieter, smoother, a lot more grip in the dry, no squealing on corners, FAR more grip in the wet or on gravel, and very long lasting. Totally transformed the handling of the car, so for the sake of a few extra dollars you can get a lot more safety and enjoyment out of driving the car.

Though in snow you do need wide, open groves with small sipes to gain grip, though with the wrong compund they wont work as well.

This is why tyres are not just tyres and you cant purely choose on looks of tread pattern alone.

[dieselnutjob]

if you can afford expensive winter tyres then good for you, go for it.

if not I still think a mid price tyre that's optimised for low temperatures will outperform any summer tyre

google around for the ADAC winter tyre tests. Some of the more well known brands are surprising rubbish, and there is reasonable performance from some cheaper brands

[Citroenmad]

I know exactly what you mean, and I admit I hadn't really considered softness of the rubber at low temperature before, (we seldom get below about 4 degrees back home, even at night) but it makes perfect sense.

The same thing applies to soles of shoes - the rubber on some shoes is amazingly grippy even on ice, other shoes with similar tread patterns are a death trap on ice or even just a wet smooth surface, so it must be the rubber composition that's the difference - cheap hard rubber, no grip on smooth/wet/slick surfaces.

Well it was -9 here this morning and its currently -5, its pretty cold! Though wet weather is were grip is needed too, and good rubber quality is what counts here too. Aquaplaning is another matter, as that is not down to grip, its tread design, letting as much water though as possible. Wet grip during accelerating, braking and cornering is what I judge a tyre on.

Ive had cars with very budget tyres before, Hero tyres spring to mind. There would have been no less grip if i had removed the tyres and ran on the alloy rims. Just totally shocking grip, well there wasnt any grip to speak of. Despite them being new when I got the car, they had go go within a few weeks.

Your right with the shoes too, a nice way to compare tyres.

That's quite amazing. I've always believed in paying a bit more for tyres and getting "known good" brands like Michelin, which are always dependable and good quality.

Yes there are some bargains to be found for less in some of the other brands, but only if you're willing to do a lot of trial and error to find them. And if one of the key magic ingredients is the rubber compound - something which is essentially "invisible" and can't easily be ascertained by looking at a tyre, you have a high chance of picking a tyre that looks good but has poor quality rubber compounds...

When I went from a "no name" brand tyre that came on my Xantia, (I think it was "Champiro", which I'd never heard of before) to the XM1's the difference wasn't slight, it was like night and day.

Quieter, smoother, a lot more grip in the dry, no squealing on corners, FAR more grip in the wet or on gravel, and very long lasting. Totally transformed the handling of the car, so for the sake of a few extra dollars you can get a lot more safety and enjoyment out of driving the car.

I do tend to stick to top brand tyres where possible too. Ive recently got a set of Michelin Primacy HPs for my car, they really have improved the drive of the car and makes me think that Michelins are fitted to Citroens for a very good reason. I cant complain about them, very good ride, quiet, very grippy in the wet and dry, wear well, very good quality tyres, slightly soggy sidewall for spirited driving would be the only thing i can pull them down for, though they still grip very well. Our Xm has Michelin energy savers and the C5 estate is going back to Michelins very soon. The other C5 has goodyears, which are good but I wish id gone for michelins again for that. Our Seat has Michelin tyres too and so does the C1.

I did go off them for their sogginess, but after trying other tyres im now coming back to Michelins.

Other brands i use are Goodyears, Continentals and Toyos.

Though getting good performing tyres doesnt mean you have to spend a fortune. Some mid range tyres are just as good, Avons, Kumhos and Toyos tend to be pretty decent for less money than the top brands.

I don remember the Michelin MX1, I dont think that is a UK spec tyre?

[Citroenmad]

if you can afford expensive winter tyres then good for you, go for it.

if not I still think a mid price tyre that's optimised for low temperatures will outperform any summer tyre

google around for the ADAC winter tyre tests. Some of the more well known brands are surprising rubbish, and there is reasonable performance from some cheaper brands

I agree, winter tyres by their design should be better than summer tyres in adverse weather conditions.

The only winter tyres i have experience of is the ones we have for our C15. Though its been so long since they have been used i can't actually remember what make they are, i know they are pretty cheap things though. I have a feeling they are Camac tyres - which are awful tyres in the summer range.

However, due to its 4 rear wheels its not exactly willing to pull away on snow or ice when trying to turn at the same time, as the rear wheels work against each other.

Fitting winter tyres to the front of it made a huge difference. virtually like driving on dry roads, so much more grip than with its summer tyres on snow.

So going by that, i would say winter tyres should have a big advantage over summer tyres in snow. Especially as they come with a lot deeper tread too.

Still, im having no problems with my summer Michies in this snow and ice we have at the moment.

[Mandrake]

I know exactly what you mean, and I admit I hadn't really considered softness of the rubber at low temperature before, (we seldom get below about 4 degrees back home, even at night) but it makes perfect sense.

Well it was -9 here this morning and its currently -5, its pretty cold!

By back home I mean back in (the far northern end of) New Zealand

Winter lows are around 4, winter highs around 12-14, and although there is occasionally some morning frost on the road there is never any snow, so I've never driven in ice or snow before except a couple of visits to ski-fields...

Here in Coatbridge we've been getting down to -10 lately, and have -11 predicted for tomorrow morning...brrrr!

I don remember the Michelin MX1, I dont think that is a UK spec tyre?

XM1 not MX1. It's possible it was an "Australasian" spec tyre, as I know that many of the other Michelin tyres are NOT available in New Zealand, when I asked about this at the time I was getting the XM1 I was told that many of the "continental spec" tyres were too soft for New Zealand roads and wore out too quickly.

While it's true that there is more coarse chip tar seal in New Zealand than there is smooth tar seal, (for reasons I don't understand - sometimes newly replaced sections of seal are the opposite type to what was previously in the same location!) I've seen plenty of coarse chip seal over here too... so perhaps I was just being fobbed off

Having said that, I'm sure I've seen the XM1 discussed on here, although it may have been a few years ago now, I bought mine in 2006 so they may be an obsolete type now...

Here is a tread picture:

http://www.forwardtyre.com/picture/prod ... _11618.jpg

[Citroenmad]

Ah, typo, i did mean XM1

Ive never seen that tyre in the UK, I don't think it is UK spec.

Interesting how different countries have different models of tyres. Though perhaps it is due to the road conditions, different temperatures etc.

Oh, you have been in for a treat then! Do you have any snow in Coatbridge?

We do have some very coarse road finishes here, though maybe not as much as other countries.

SO many roads in the UK are very badly potholed, which isnt kind to tyres. Just this morning while i was filling the car up with fuel there was a Vectra driver changing his front wheel and complaining to someone about the roads and a pothole he had just hit. The tyre was flat and so was the wheel!

If coarse roads meant less potholes, id prefer that

[CitroJim]

SO many roads in the UK are very badly potholed, which isnt kind to tyres. Just this morning while i was filling the car up with fuel there was a Vectra driver changing his front wheel and complaining to someone about the roads and a pothole he had just hit. The tyre was flat and so was the wheel!

There's a train of thought that alleges the local authorities are being encouraged to allow roads to decay purposely so that the rough surface and potholes act as a kind of a natural speed reduction device. If this is indeed true, and it does seem a bit far-fetched in my view, then we can expect plenty of tyre damage in the years to come.

The cynic in me says this is just a mighty fine excuse for the authorities not to spend any time or money repairing roads properly. Goodness knows how they'll look at the end of this latest bit of chilly weather.

[Xaccers]

Funds to repair roads after frost/bad weather comes from central government.
If memory serves, when the snow hit at the begining of the year, councils were still waiting for their funds from the year before!

[CitroJim]

councils were still waiting for their funds from the year before!

Now why does that surprise me