Water leaks - Xantia

Penguin · Post by **Penguin** » 22 Nov 2010, 08:36

OKee Dokee folks, bak again with more tales of woe.
Friday on my way to work I noticed that the fans were on and the temp guage was above the 85 line, given the time of year and my particular journey to work this is unusual. So at lunchtime I filled up the cooling system with water and it took 2.5 litres! Admittedly I brimmed it, but even so, thats quite a lot. Anyhoo, I drove the 30 minutes back home and again noticed the temp rising slightly. Parked up and left it until yesterday afternoon when I again put 2.5 litres in (brimmed again). So, my question is, what are the likely candidates for my woes? I think it is too much to lose via the heater matrix without noticing it, and I also noticed that it appeared to be dry under my car this morning, intimating that perhaps the problem only shows up when running.

A mate of mine has said that he will bring in some of that fluorescent tracer stuff that we can use but I would like a heads up on the likely candidates first if you would be so kind.

Thanks chaps.

Stempy · Post by **Stempy** » 22 Nov 2010, 09:36

Head gasket?

VertVega · Post by **VertVega** » 22 Nov 2010, 09:37

A lot of coolant has disappeared (2.5 l)

I hope it's not the head gasket.
A blown head gasket can cause some serious damage, costing you a lot in car repair.
Did you check the engine oil? Amount and also does it still look like 'normal' used engine oil?

Penguin · Post by **Penguin** » 22 Nov 2010, 10:25

VertVega wrote:A lot of coolant has disappeared (2.5 l) I hope it's not the head gasket.
A blown head gasket can cause some serious damage, costing you a lot in car repair.
Did you check the engine oil? Amount and also does it still look like 'normal' used engine oil?

I have looked on the dipstick and it just looks like normal, used engine oil. No sign of 'creaming', but I will remove the filler cap when I get home (don't have the car with me today) to make sure. If it is the head gasket then the car will be scrapped, as its not worth repairing it.

Edit: forgot to mention that the oil level was midway between the notches on the dipstick, so pretty normal.

Xaccers · Post by **Xaccers** » 22 Nov 2010, 10:46

Check under the footwell carpets just to exclude the heater matrix leaking inside the cabin.
Might also be worth checking the matrix pipes on the bulkhead while revving the nuts off the engine incase one of the o-rings has gone and is pumping coolant out there. My activa tends to blow her's off if I'm too heavy with my right foot, but that's at much higher revs than a TD.
Can you pop the cam belt covers off and look around the water pump?

VertVega · Post by **VertVega** » 22 Nov 2010, 11:02

Xac wrote:Check under the footwell carpets just to exclude the heater matrix leaking...

Good point! Matrix leak should also give an additional curry like 'odeur' inside the cabin and possibly misty windscreen.

I have found this list of a head gasket failure symptoms:
"1. Engine Overheat
If there is a coolant leak, a common symptom is the engine overheating.
In some cases, the overheat may be so quick the engine simply won't run long.

2. Poor Performance
A coolant leak from the head gasket can cause the engine to run roughly.
It can also cause a loss of engine power and fuel economy.

3.Unusual Exhaust
Another typical symptom is the presence of white smoke or sweet-smelling steam
coming from the exhaust pipe.

4.Frothy Oil
The appearance of frothy, milky white coating on the oil cap or the dipstick may indicate
a coolant leak into the oil pan. This may also be a symptom of a cracked engine block.

5.Loss of Coolant
If your engine experiences a loss of coolant, but there is no visible leak, it could mean
a leaking head gasket.

6.Clean Spark Plugs
If one spark plug is visibly cleaner than the others, coolant could be leaking into that cylinder.

7.Heating System
The cabin heating vents may emit a strange odor, similar to to synthetic rubber
and antifreeze, in the event of a coolant leak.

8. Coolant in Strange Places
A leak could also cause engine coolant to be forced into the recovery tank or the radiator."

Penguin · Post by **Penguin** » 22 Nov 2010, 11:10

VertVega wrote:I have found this list of a head gasket failure symptoms:
"1. Engine Overheat
If there is a coolant leak, a common symptom is the engine overheating.
In some cases, the overheat may be so quick the engine simply won't run long.

2. Poor Performance
A coolant leak from the head gasket can cause the engine to run roughly.
It can also cause a loss of engine power and fuel economy.

3.Unusual Exhaust
Another typical symptom is the presence of white smoke or sweet-smelling steam
coming from the exhaust pipe.

4.Frothy Oil
The appearance of frothy, milky white coating on the oil cap or the dipstick may indicate
a coolant leak into the oil pan. This may also be a symptom of a cracked engine block.

5.Loss of Coolant
If your engine experiences a loss of coolant, but there is no visible leak, it could mean
a leaking head gasket.

6.Clean Spark Plugs
If one spark plug is visibly cleaner than the others, coolant could be leaking into that cylinder.

7.Heating System
The cabin heating vents may emit a strange odor, similar to to synthetic rubber
and antifreeze, in the event of a coolant leak.

8. Coolant in Strange Places
A leak could also cause engine coolant to be forced into the recovery tank or the radiator."

1 & 5. Don't think the others have occurred. As for point 8, shouldn't engine coolant go into the radiator?

Penguin · Post by **Penguin** » 22 Nov 2010, 11:12

Xac wrote:Check under the footwell carpets just to exclude the heater matrix leaking inside the cabin.
Might also be worth checking the matrix pipes on the bulkhead while revving the nuts off the engine incase one of the o-rings has gone and is pumping coolant out there. My activa tends to blow her's off if I'm too heavy with my right foot, but that's at much higher revs than a TD.
Can you pop the cam belt covers off and look around the water pump?

Thanks for the tips. I would have thought I would have noticed more than 2 litres coming into the footwell though. That is a hell of a lot of water to have sloshing around your feet. Will take a look at the pipes along the bulkhead. The heater appears to be working OK if that means anything at all.

Penguin · Post by **Penguin** » 23 Nov 2010, 09:22

Just a quick question, what is the cpacity of the cooling system? How much fluid should be in there? I have looked in the BOL but couldn't find the info. I need to work out how much anti-freeze I should put in once I have fixed any leaks that the tracer will hopefully show up.

Post by **RichardW** » 23 Nov 2010, 12:17

Capacity is 9 or 10 litres - stick a gallon of antifreeze in and top up with water.

I'd say radiator was favourite for having failed on a 15 year old Xantia TD - they rot for fun!

Penguin · Post by **Penguin** » 23 Nov 2010, 14:34

RichardW wrote:Capacity is 9 or 10 litres - stick a gallon of antifreeze in and top up with water.

I'd say radiator was favourite for having failed on a 15 year old Xantia TD - they rot for fun!

Thanks for the info Richard

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 23 Nov 2010, 15:09

My bets are on two: IF theres no smells of curry, then the only other two ARE Radiator, and Defenatly water pump!!

The radiator is slightly harder to tell, as when its warm it will simply dry the water away, a tell tail will be signs of anti freeze "Crumbs" near the leak..

DO NOT leave JUST water in the cooling system for long, as it WILL rust up the block and cause other problems with your head gasket!! ALWAYS top with With anti freeze mix to keep the rust away! And of course prevent freezeing..

Water pump, remove the upper covers, and possibly the lower but for this you'll need to remove the crank pully... again if the pump is leaking you'll see the line of "sludge" from under the pump pully!! If you have to change this, then put a new belt on aswell... XUD Pullys and tensioners or extreamilly long lived, so dont useually need changing unlike these modern plastic crap you get now!

I bought a Xantia HDi, water level was low, and brown, so there was obvious signs of frequent topping up... Radiator is of Alluminium type so they dont tend to rot on HDi's but it was obvious with a belt replacment, the water pump was leaking.. I could NOT see it leaking when running etc, but the line of "Crud" was there. Pump, new belt, FULL system flush out inc heater matrix, and shes not lost an ounch since, and the heater is HOT again..

Paul

wrinklet1 · Post by **wrinklet1** » 23 Nov 2010, 16:13

I think it may be well worth your whiule taking a look at your core plugs. I had a similar problem loosing about the same amount of coolant. It turned out to be a hole in the core plug that was hitting a hot part of the engine to no evidence was visible because it went to steam instantly.
Top the car up and run it looking all over for water squirting out like a fine spray

Paul

Penguin · Post by **Penguin** » 24 Nov 2010, 08:12

OK chaps, I have managed a limited amount of investigation (due mainly to a lack of facilities and a lack of mechanical skill!). I have used a chemical 'sniffer' to check for exhaust gases in the cooling system. The test came out negative so that should mean the head gasket is OK. I have used a fluorescent tracer in the cooling system and I now have a drive that glows in the dark! The fluid appears to be coming from somewhere at the back and bottom of the engine. Can't see the dye from the top and, unfortunately, I can't locate the problem from underneath (no rams, steep drive and bottom cover still on). I think this is the rough environs of the water pump isn't it? I'm going to ring my local independent Citroen specialist today to see if he can put it up on his ramp for a better look.

Thaks for all the advice. Mush appreciated as usual.

Post by **RichardW** » 24 Nov 2010, 08:14

Water pump, or the plastic inlet housing on the back of the block - which is a right bar steward to change