strange problem (ZX)

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 25 Sep 2010, 13:20

I have a strange problem, i think its the starter motor at fault but not sure.
Symptoms.

You can get in the car and put the key in the ignition, and start the car. yet if you then turn the engine off you run the risk of not being able to start it again. you can turn the key all the way, you get a click as the solenoid clicks, dash lights all light up, but no sound what so ever from the starter motor. you can then push start the car, and get the starter motor back on the key turn, does that make sense?

Things already done.

Tried jump starting with jump leads, but no go.
Also replaced the battery with a known good one.
Also charged the battery and retried it on the car
Checked for charging from the Alternator and all is fine.
Changed solenoid
Checked fuses

Only thing i can put it down to is the start motor is at fault.

Only problem is, where the blooming hell is it? i cant find it, i know it looks different to most starter motors I've seen, but this one seems to be some kind of disk shape starter and I'm yet to spot it in the engine bay.

spider · Post by **spider** » 25 Sep 2010, 14:44

Petrol (1.4 / 1.6) is at the back under the inlet manifold

Diesel (1.8 / 1.9) is at the front.

Could be immobiliser fault actually as the early ones just kill the feed between key and starter.

Old-Guy · Post by **Old-Guy** » 25 Sep 2010, 14:59

From the symptoms you describe and what you've done so far, the problems obviously lies with the starter motor. Before you think of pulling it apart, there's obviously nothing fundamentally wrong with it because it DOES work sometimes but at others nothing happens so no 'juice' is reaching the motor.

The problem more or less has to be a bad connection on the high current circuit (the really thick cables) Battery positive - solenoid - starter motor - battery negative. The last (earth) link in this circuit is often forgotten. If the solenoid doesn't get enough volts, or if there's a bad connection in the high current circuit, then the starter can't turn the engine over.

If you can't find the starter, you can't have changed the starter solenoid. To find the starter on any car, simply follow the finger-thick cable from the battery positive - it will go straight to the solenoid which almost always sits on the starter.

Remember that there has to be a complete (heavy current) circuit from the starter body back to the battery negative - probably via the engine/gearbox and an earth strap. I've come across loose starters, corroded mating faces between starter and bell-housing, broken/missing earth straps and dirty earth connections.

My bet would be on a loose/broken connection somewhere.

Completely disconnect the battery (NEGATIVE FIRST) before putting any tools anywhere near any electrical connections and take off jewellery and metal watch straps. When a ring or metal bracelet shorts between a heavy 12V feed and part of the vehicle, the ring/bracelet vapourises instantly (it's like heavy duty welding), the bodily extremity (finger or hand) gets amputated and the wound cauterised all in one. If you're really unlucky, the dead short causes the battery to explode spraying boiling sulphuric acid all over the place.

{edit} And I should have said RECONNECT NEGATIVE LAST. That way, if a spanner touches bare metal when it's on the Positive battery clamp, the battery is already/still safely isolated.

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 25 Sep 2010, 18:18

Cheers bud, no need for all the warnings, know about all that already lol

There is a relay under the dash i changed, as that was clicking loudly, managed to get a ZX Haynes today. and yes found the starter, I'm used to one being a lot lower on my 300zx than the one on this little car. going to give it a good look tomorrow. thanks for the feed back much appreciated. ill let you know my findings.

spider · Post by **spider** » 25 Sep 2010, 18:24

You can (ensure that car is in neutral / park!) apply power (via short length of suitably fused wire) to the starter.

To do this, attach it to the starter first not the battery. The 'thin' feed wire obviously, you cannot pass the huge amperage safely

, then (again ensure in neutral / park) touch the other end to the positive battery terminal to see if there's any life in the starter.

Should be able to do this from above with a bit of a reach, even though its under the inlet manifold, can normally see the wiring. Ideal if its got a spade terminal holding it on opposed to an eyelet.

Will help narrow it down a bit anyway hopefully.

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 25 Sep 2010, 20:06

if all the above has been checked/replaced, and you say bump startting the car gets the starter working again, this could be you fly wheel ring gear has damaged teeth, so when the engine stops at the point the damaged section is alongside the starter, the starter does not mesh with thering gear,

if you attempt the use the method Andy mentioned, mind you only conect the temporary thin wire between the solanoid feed terminal then the battery, never conect thin wire directly from battery to the starter itself,

so who fitted the solanoid and were abouts on the car was it fitted, as it is atatched directly onto the starter body,

and these starters are the usual standerd pre/engadged motors, no diferent to most cars

regards malcolm

HDI · Post by **HDI** » 25 Sep 2010, 20:32

The exact same problem has afflicted my Xantia recently !
See my thread 'Xantia HDI starter motor'.
The problem was worn & dirty starter motor brushes which can be replaced fairly easily.

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 26 Sep 2010, 09:08

HDI wrote:The exact same problem has afflicted my Xantia recently !
See my thread 'Xantia HDI starter motor'.
The problem was worn & dirty starter motor brushes which can be replaced fairly easily.

That is the closest to what the Haynes manual says, ill whoop the start motor off and have a look, Haynes manual states for my engine size and car (carburetor) that the start motor teeth engage only when the ignition is turned to the "start" position. So before i do anything else the start motor is coming off and having a good inspection and clean. if that doesn't cure the problem, ill be replacing the solenoid, then check the fly wheel teeth.

kenhall1202 · Post by **kenhall1202** » 26 Sep 2010, 18:39

Sounds like worn out or sticking brushes only making intermittent contact with the commutator.

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 26 Sep 2010, 18:46

try bashing the starter with a long bar whilst someone is turnning the key to starter position,

if this works the problem is brush's worn of sticking,

regards malcolm

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 27 Sep 2010, 14:28

typical, its bloody rained every day since it happened so getting out to check is a nightmare at the moment lol

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 30 Sep 2010, 13:50

Starter motor came off the car yesterday, took it apart and cleaned out the 19 years of crap build up, put it back on the car. and so far everything is looking good.

Now just have to trace the reason its not liking to start straight away.