which is best a xantia or an C5 ?

Xantidote · Post by **Xantidote** » 22 Sep 2010, 20:26

I don't like the idea of having a dual mass flywheel, which I suspect all diesel C5s have - it's just another item to let you down, and cost more to rectify.

Does the C5 have multi-plex wiring? If it does, then that's another no-no as far as I'm concerned

Post by **myglaren** » 22 Sep 2010, 21:53

Yes, it is multiplexed and has a DMF and DM crank pulley.

Post by **CitroJim** » 22 Sep 2010, 22:26

myglaren wrote:Yes, it is multiplexed and has a DMF and DM crank pulley.

A triumvirate of things nobody wants on a car

At least the average xantia has only one of those horrid objects and goodness knows, one is bad enough

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 22 Sep 2010, 22:34

As has been said finding a good Xantia (or XM) becomes ever harder by the day they really are few and far between so.......

C5's Mk1 and Mk11 (sometimes known as face lift)
Mechanically little different to the Xantia, biggest difference is the brakes which have gone back to 100 yr old technology i.e Hydrostatic no different to the rest of the world, albeit with quite a sophisticated ABS / Traction Control/ Stability protection system.
Hydractive 3 is basically the same as a non hydractive Xantia, without such a good ride. Hydractive 3+ is only available on top spec cars 2.2 and V6, its operation is different to H2 and the ride again is in my opinion not so good as H2 many reports of being "hard" by comparison.

Engines all engines on manual boxes have DMF 2.0 Ltr is much more economic than the 2.2. 2.2 has the much maligned FAP which like all trail blazers is not so good as those which came after on the Mk2 though many will argue that no filter in an exhaust pipe can ever be good

The 4HP20 box doesn't appear to be as well sorted as it could be on the 2.2.

All systems are multiplexed electronics and highly integrated Mk1 VAN and CAN bus Mk11 all CAN (better). They have a "certain cache" for unreliability in the electrical department which in my opinion is generally unfounded and reflects more on the fact that few people really understand how the car works, and attempt to troubleshoot the car without a Lexia, a recipe for making a small hole larger which then has to be filled with money. I dread to think of the number of new FAP filters that have unnecessarily been sold on 2.2's because of the "Antipollution" message.

Plenty of attractive fully loaded top spec S1's available not so many S2's but the S2 is probably the better buy (IMHO) If buying a 2.2 then a post 2006 with the rare 176 twin turbo is the one to go for reported as being considerably better in terms of fuel consumption that its predecessor.

The Mk111 C5 is not a C5 if the S1 S2 are C5's

The current C5 is a completely new car and shares more with the C6 the either of the preceding C5's not available as a hatchback which is a negative for me and any hydraulic suspension only available on top spec models. Seems to me that the only difference between a medium spec C5 Tourer (Estate) and Peugeot 407Sw are the looks and I think I prefer the Peugeot.

Few if any of the reason brakes, steering and suspension and an integrated approach to all three, which originally attracted me to Citroen's now remain and for that reason I suspect that my next car will not be a Citroen.

So The conclusion?

I think that anyone that has a good Xantia (or XM) should hold on to it until it falls apart then consider the options you have at that time

cachaciero

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 22 Sep 2010, 22:58

CitroJim wrote:
myglaren wrote:Yes, it is multiplexed and has a DMF and DM crank pulley.
A triumvirate of things nobody wants on a car

At least the average xantia has only one of those horrid objects and goodness knows, one is bad enough

Jim

Would agree with the DMF and Pulley

Multiplexed systems are a vast improvement over those that preceded it BUT they do require a different way of looking at things and they do require an investment in appropriate tooling i.e a Lexia or similar.
Not many people would tackle an autobox rebuild but you did but you invested in tools to do the job.

FAP well..... If we want a cleaner world there is a price to pay

cachaciero

addo · Post by **addo** » 22 Sep 2010, 22:58

I'd reshell my Xantia before going to a pre-X7 C5.

C6 never came in estate form, so no point me aspiring to one.

Xaccers · Post by **Xaccers** » 22 Sep 2010, 23:27

cachaciero wrote: FAP well..... If we want a cleaner world there is a price to pay

Yeah, £400 for a good 1.9TD Xantia and then 70ppl for veg

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 22 Sep 2010, 23:32

Xac wrote:
cachaciero wrote: FAP well..... If we want a cleaner world there is a price to pay
Yeah, £400 for a good 1.9TD Xantia and then 70ppl for veg

cachaciero

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 22 Sep 2010, 23:43

An interesting one, that i can't answer ... as ive not had a Xantia.

Ive often wanted one and still would like one, however it would have to be a diesel and finding one which suits proved very diffucult for me to find. It doesnt help that most cars are way south from here.

Though i can give a good report on C5s ...

Ill begin by saying i like them, as often im saying about their faults but i still choose to have one. Yes they are not the best looking car but ive got over that now and i quite like the looks, its boring if anything and i agree that the estate is quite a handsome car but i dont find the hatch ugly now. The facelift is also better looking though i dislike some of the cheaper aspects of its styling and trim which the S1 is better for. Such as every facelift has cut-outs in the bumper for headlamp washers, but very few cars have them. Every one has cut outs for parking sensors at the rear but again very few have those too.

While i do complain about the niggles on my C5, ive no doubt that the gengine is a good one and will go on for many many miles if looked after. One of the reaons i bought a C5 HDi was because i didnt like the reports id heard about other manufacturer diesel engines and their faults.

Yes all do have DMFs and that could possibly be a extra hassle somewhere down the ownership line, however most modern cars have them now so its something we are going to have to get used to. And besides, there is a solid flywheel replacement available for the 2.0 8v HDi should the DMF fail. Which i can remport works a treat and our C5 SX has covered more miles on a solid flywheel than on its original DMF.

Im slightly dissapointed with the gearbox on my C5, as its become notchy and sometimes it crunches. Ive not had time to look into it very much but i have had the oil changed with no difference.

Mechanically the C5s seem pretty good, its the electrical gremlins which trouble them if anything. We have had two 52reg C5s, one was sold with 106K miles and was mechanically very good It did need a replacement clutch kit (DMF was fine) and radious bearing at 100K miles but thats to be expected. Our current 52reg has 125K miles and still drives very nicely, no mechanical issues, it just keeps on going (for now). It did recently need a new speedo unit which would have been very costly (£515 from Citroen) had we not struck lucky and found a new one for £75. OUr 05 Facelifted C5 estate is great, the 2.0 16V HDi is a brilliant perfomer and it delivers more MPG than my 8v does, That does quite a lot of miles with a heavy load on board and it never complains, currently on 58K miles.

My 04 VTR has 77K miles and has the abox gearbox complain, but other than that its mechanically good. With the slight niggle that the handbrake sticks on, needs a new fron calliper. Though im always confident its going to get me where i need to be and it does my reasonably lengthy daily commute very nicely and economically.

In truth ive had more problems with German cars than we have ever had with French cars.

The C5 drives ok, its not a drivers car but its far from poor. Earlier ones have a softer set up, smaller wheels and larger sidewall tyres. Which makes the ride better but for me the handling suffers. As C5s went on the ride seemed to get slightly firmer and the handing became more tought. For this reason i much prefer the two VTRs we have, as they handle reasonably. The facelifted estate can ride a bit too firm when empty and only one person in the car, it rides near to a conventionally sprung car. That might be something to do with changes along the C5s life and also because its an estate. But it does handle and have better steering feel than our other two. Mine sits in the middle with a compliant ride and handling.

My C5 gets driven quite hard and i can report that they are safe and quite predicatable at the limits. They offer a lot of grip (with good tyres, cheap tyres dont agree with C5s at all) but not much feel. As is the way with a reasonably softly sprung big car there is roll, but its rarely excessive and i quite enjoy driving my C5 quickly on some good roads, its much iomproved over the 52 SX. Probably a lot of that is down to its larger wheels and grippier rubber - which does wear very quickly.

The C5s are at best on the motorways, they eat miles like very few cars in their class. I put this down to mainly their refinement. They are extremely refined at speed, rind and road noise is very slight and there is no engine noise. Ive been in many cars of all shapes, sizes and many luxury cars and the C5 comes quite close to them. WHich is one thing i really do like about them. The Xm is a quiet car but its not as good as the C5. It has confortable seats and suspension which does well on the motorway, economy is very good for a large car and the HDis provide good motorway overtaking and can hold high speed easily.

The C5 is a great motorway mile muncher.

I cant compare to a Xantia as its years since ive been a good few miles in one. However the Xm and C5 are very different cars and its hard to compare them. Obviously the Xm is the better looking car but looks don't make a car what it is. Once your inside or driving the car the looks dont matter. The Xm is the better car to drive, there is no doubt in my mind there. Its more communicative, more comfortable, more direct, its just better in just about every way to drive. Thats not to say the C5 is poor.

When i drive an Xm for a long journey or even just using it daily, i still look forward to getting into a C5, its odd that.

There are many things i like about the C5, and some things i dont. My main problem with C5s is the steering, yu can not feel what the front tyres are doing but you can feel bumps. Thats backwards to me, the road should be felt but not the bumps. The VTrs seem worse with their wider wheels, i guess if a bump is hit with the outer edge of the tyre it might have an effect on the steering, its more noticable in a C5 that any other car ive driven. I do feel its possibly a bit too complex, the multiplexing is one reason. Yes its quite nice to get visual warnings of problems and issues and i do like the big trip conputer display and i even like the automatic lights and wipers. There are all great when they work. If they dont its usually the comms unit which isnt really a hugely common failing but if it goes its around £180 to replace, ive had that. When your trying to indicate but all it wants to do is turn on the headlights its a little fustrating and thats what gets me thinking 'why is this needed'.

The suspension is more simple on C5s, there is much less pipework and everything is very easy to get at and replace on the C5. There are only 4 sphere on normal C5s and they often last nearly the lifetime of the car. Strut tops are not known to be a problem, though im alarmed at mine having surface rust already - our other two C5s dont.

The C5s space is also another plus, rear legroom is less than an Xm but its still ample and can seat 5 im reasonable comfort. Im 6ft2 and i find the front very comfortable, with lots of adjustment and room. I also like the folding armrest on the front seats. The fact that its a large hatchback (i didnt want an estate) is great and another big reason i chose a C5, as my two big dogs fit in brilliantly.

The C5 does everything i need and want from a car and more, i find it hard to find a car which offers similar and for similar money. Which is another thing, C5s are great value for money. Yes at times they might eat money in repairs but if you choose carefully and get a good one then they can be very reliable.

Im not sure where i went wrong with mine, its got full history, reasonably low miles for what it is and it looks pretty much like new inside and out. But ive had to spend a small fortune on mine since ive had it.

One big reason i chose a C5 in the end over a Xantia was safety, its always something i look at when buying a car and i feel its more important now than ever. I know the old arguements that people put over, you dont need a safe car if you drive safely, ive never had a crash so why do i need a safe car etc etc. However accidents do happen and with modern cars becoming bigger, stronger and heavier i think it pays to take safety into account. The S1 C5 is one of the safest cars in its class and when the facelift C5 was released it was among the safest cars in Europe, it remains to be and it actually slightly beats the new shape C5 in the tests too.

Anyway, the C5 exceeds at some things but it does have its drawbacks, but what doesnt. Though very few cars are perfect and the C5 makes an excellent daily driver.

Ive often thought and i am thinking about replacing mine, but i still keep coming back to C5s. Im tempted by a C4, and my youth tells me i should get a 3dr C4, but my head tells me it should be a C5, or atleast a 5 door C4. C4s are nice but i think id miss the space and suspension of my C5. I often use the space of my C5 and only yesterday had it filled with a load which most cars would be scraping along the floor with. Id like a facelifted C5 and i plan on getting a new shape C5 when the prices agree with me.

Another massively long post by me, though i could have gone on!

In short, i really rate the C5, its not perfect but it does make a good car. While im a little dissapointed with my current one it wont put me off another.

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 23 Sep 2010, 13:52

Citroenmad wrote:

The C5 is a great motorway mile muncher.

There are many things i like about the C5, and some things i dont. My main problem with C5s is the steering, yu can not feel what the front tyres are doing but you can feel bumps. Thats backwards to me, the road should be felt but not the bumps. The VTrs seem worse with their wider wheels, i guess if a bump is hit with the outer edge of the tyre it might have an effect on the steering, its more noticable in a C5 that any other car ive driven.

Yes bumps through the steering are my biggest complaint, but I've always put that down to the front suspension being too hard.

I do feel its possibly a bit too complex, the multiplexing is one reason. Yes its quite nice to get visual warnings of problems and issues and i do like the big trip conputer display and i even like the automatic lights and wipers. There are all great when they work. If they dont its usually the comms unit which isnt really a hugely common failing but if it goes its around £180 to replace, ive had that. When your trying to indicate but all it wants to do is turn on the headlights its a little fustrating and thats what gets me thinking 'why is this needed'.

In a word saves wires, I was amazed at how easy it was to remove the entire panel one connector with about ten wires in it for everything on the panel, when last I did an XM there were several looms to contend with one for the tach one for the speedo one for....... well I'm sure you get the picture

Post by **CitroJim** » 23 Sep 2010, 14:23

cachaciero wrote: In a word saves wires,

Absolutely

Compare and contrast a high-end late Xantia and the massive looms it has. Goodness knows how many miles of wiring make it up but it's a lot and consequently a whole library of wiring manuals are needed. in fact wiring diagrams are most of the Xantia workshop manuals. Faults in the Xantia looms can be a trial unless you are a very experienced autosparks.

The loom across the MK2 Xantia dash is as big around as your arm.

Multiplexing was an answer to a prayer even if it brought its own problems. Think of it as an Ethernet computer network and you are not far off how it works.

XantiaDaveEire · Post by **XantiaDaveEire** » 23 Sep 2010, 14:51

citroenxm wrote:My personal thoughts were Citroën seem to be writing themselfs off...

The C4 is "Tiny", the C5 is tooo big for most..there needs to be a C4 and a half really. I personally like big cars, hence the fleet of XM's, the Xantia was a good size, and sold well, I think manufactures should carry on selling a car till they do stop selling.. Ive heard lots of people say "... why did they stop selling them......" my response, becuase the press or media force them too by saying.. "..ohhh the design is a bit old now...." shouldn't we, the car buyers be the judge of that? I realise, we relay on people to buy them new in the first place however....

Paul

I agree entirely,i taught the same thing the other day when i seen a 406 on an 04 plate and taught how the hell could that still have been made when the Xantia had been replaced 3 and a bit years before

The Xantia was the better selling car id assume

KevMayer · Post by **KevMayer** » 23 Sep 2010, 18:38

How about this beauty..

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2007-CITROEN-C5-2 ... 5194e00aee

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 23 Sep 2010, 18:54

They certainly offer great performance, 173bhp in a C5, who would have thought it!

imperial21 · Post by **imperial21** » 23 Sep 2010, 19:28

Wow all these replys, I have sent my Xantia of for its work tomorrow. You have all certainly made me think, i am for now going to keep trying to get it into tip top condition, which i like my cars to be as I tow a caravan, i am well impresed by how well it tows, i had a mk1 focus diesel before i think the xantia is in another world in comparasant, the focus was pants !

As mentioned all the new wiring and dmfs & emision controls are quite scary & very expensive to repair.

hopefully my xantia will be with me for a long time !