'96 Xantia front sphere design change - where to buy?
Moderator: RichardW
'96 Xantia front sphere design change - where to buy?
I bought my last set of spheres for 1.8 petrol Xantia from GSF about 7 years ago. Now the front n/s has recently seized up (no suspension movement) and so I bought a replacement from GSF and fitted it.
When I started the engine and set the suspension back to normal height, LHM fluid poured out from the join between the sphere and the mounting block.
I removed the sphere and compared it to the old one, something I should have done before I know, but they look identical unless you take a closer look. The 'new' design has a recessed area at the top of the screw threads, whereas the 'old' design (the one I removed) has no such recess. Little wonder that it did not make a oil-tight seal.
Thinking GSF must have given me the wrong part I took it back. They looked through all the boxes of spheres that they have in stock - all of them have this recessed area - none of them are a match for mine. They gave me a refund.
I've tried all the usual outlets, but get the same response - the spheres for sale are of the 'new' recessed pattern.
Now that Pleiades has retired, I'm at a loss to know where to buy a spare. At £55 a pop, the Citroen Main Dealer is not the option I hope!
Any help from you guys would be greatly appreciated.
I've posted a couple of photos of my 'old' sphere that I am trying to match.
http://s880.photobucket.com/albums/ac10/thregwort/
Thanks in advance.
When I started the engine and set the suspension back to normal height, LHM fluid poured out from the join between the sphere and the mounting block.
I removed the sphere and compared it to the old one, something I should have done before I know, but they look identical unless you take a closer look. The 'new' design has a recessed area at the top of the screw threads, whereas the 'old' design (the one I removed) has no such recess. Little wonder that it did not make a oil-tight seal.
Thinking GSF must have given me the wrong part I took it back. They looked through all the boxes of spheres that they have in stock - all of them have this recessed area - none of them are a match for mine. They gave me a refund.
I've tried all the usual outlets, but get the same response - the spheres for sale are of the 'new' recessed pattern.
Now that Pleiades has retired, I'm at a loss to know where to buy a spare. At £55 a pop, the Citroen Main Dealer is not the option I hope!
Any help from you guys would be greatly appreciated.
I've posted a couple of photos of my 'old' sphere that I am trying to match.
http://s880.photobucket.com/albums/ac10/thregwort/
Thanks in advance.
Last edited by Thregwort on 16 Sep 2010, 17:27, edited 1 time in total.
Citroen Xantia 1.8L petrol estate. 1996, 8v, 122k, mine for 11 trouble-free years...apart from the comedy electrics, of course!!
Pleides retired!!!! I don't think so...
Can't help on your particular concern but the 'experts' i.e. Pleides ( 01487831239 ) will certainly be able to supply spheres!
Can't help on your particular concern but the 'experts' i.e. Pleides ( 01487831239 ) will certainly be able to supply spheres!
Ian
Account Ref: 6419
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Account Ref: 6419
Current Cars
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Merc E270 Estate
Past Citroens
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1999 Xantia 1.9TD
1997 Xantia 3.0 Exclusive
1995 XM 3.0 Exclusive Estate
Pleiades resurrected!!
Well, thanks for that - they certainly keep their web profile down - just you try Googling them. I'll give them a bell tomorrow.
Thanks M8.
Thanks M8.
Citroen Xantia 1.8L petrol estate. 1996, 8v, 122k, mine for 11 trouble-free years...apart from the comedy electrics, of course!!
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The new o-ring should fit perfectly in the recess of the strut top. Fit it in there first, then screw the sphere home hand tight. If you try and fit the sphere with the o-ring on the threads, you're likely to pinch it resulting in a poor seal and a leak.
Also, why are you only replacing one sphere???
Always replace corner spheres in pairs.
If you've not replaced any of your spheres in 7 years, I'd imagine they all need doing along with a good dose of hydrorincage
Also, why are you only replacing one sphere???
Always replace corner spheres in pairs.
If you've not replaced any of your spheres in 7 years, I'd imagine they all need doing along with a good dose of hydrorincage
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About 18 Months ago for my MOT had to change a rear sphere and noticed the diference between the genuine citroen sphere and the replacement one from GSF just as your pictures show. The new sphere didnt seal right and leaked from the joint between the strut top and the sphere. In the end to get it through the MOT I removed a genuine citroen rear sphere from my "spares" xantia and there was no problem with leakage from the join.
As a belt and braces job I also used plumbers gas spec thread sealing tape, although this was not universally agreed to be a good thing by other posters on the forum.
regards Neil
As a belt and braces job I also used plumbers gas spec thread sealing tape, although this was not universally agreed to be a good thing by other posters on the forum.
regards Neil
Rubber 'O' ring
Thanks for your thoughts chaps - yes, I did fit the supplied new 'O' ring, noting it was a square section unlike the old round section that I removed with the old sphere.
This wasn't a 'leak' as might be attributed to a badly fitting thin rubber ring but a torrent of fluid caused by the mis-matched sizes of the business end of the new sphere and the face in the hole in the mounting block, where an intimate contact between metal-to-metal surely provides the primary pressure proof seal. At working pressure (this part of the circuit is at between 150 and 180 bars) I don't think a thin rubber 'O' ring is going to be the primary seal upon which the whole system depends. It's just there to catch 'dribbles' I would have thought.
I may be wrong, but I'll speak to the gurus at Pleiades tomorrow and see what they say.
This wasn't a 'leak' as might be attributed to a badly fitting thin rubber ring but a torrent of fluid caused by the mis-matched sizes of the business end of the new sphere and the face in the hole in the mounting block, where an intimate contact between metal-to-metal surely provides the primary pressure proof seal. At working pressure (this part of the circuit is at between 150 and 180 bars) I don't think a thin rubber 'O' ring is going to be the primary seal upon which the whole system depends. It's just there to catch 'dribbles' I would have thought.
I may be wrong, but I'll speak to the gurus at Pleiades tomorrow and see what they say.
Citroen Xantia 1.8L petrol estate. 1996, 8v, 122k, mine for 11 trouble-free years...apart from the comedy electrics, of course!!
subject
As Xac says it's the seal at the other end of the thread that does the business. The seal needs to fit within the recess in the housing.
They can and do slip out so check again just as the faces come together.
I know it is not your fault but when viewing your picture I was subjected to the message that I had won something or other and had to exit the browser
to get rid of the message.
Can the resident experts please recommend photo posting procedures that avoid this unwelcome experience,
Good luck a NEW seal will fix your problem.
Patrick
several misc Xantia.
They can and do slip out so check again just as the faces come together.
I know it is not your fault but when viewing your picture I was subjected to the message that I had won something or other and had to exit the browser
to get rid of the message.
Can the resident experts please recommend photo posting procedures that avoid this unwelcome experience,
Good luck a NEW seal will fix your problem.
Patrick
several misc Xantia.
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Re: subject
Just been to the images and see no adverts.bxman wrote: Can the resident experts please recommend photo posting procedures that avoid this unwelcome experience,
Patrick
several misc Xantia.
I'm using Firefox and Flock that have ad blocking extensions.
If you are using IE then I would recommend changing to a different browser, the two mentioned, Google Chrome (also has adblocking extensions) or perhaps Opera, which I haven't used for a couple of years now so can't vouch for.
Images brought into the first post to avoid the problem pro tem.
Using the [img] code provided by PhotoBucket et al (remebering to post images no larger than 700 pixels wide) avoids this problem altogether.
subject
Thanks Steve you have solved the problem .
I was using Firefox and I was as I recall the 9 millionth user and had won a prize ha ha .
Can I take the opportunity to thank you and all your friends for your kind help with the manuals.
Jim dropped them into my boot on Sunday lowering the suspension a mite.
they should keep me out of mischief for a while.
cheers Patrick
I was using Firefox and I was as I recall the 9 millionth user and had won a prize ha ha .
Can I take the opportunity to thank you and all your friends for your kind help with the manuals.
Jim dropped them into my boot on Sunday lowering the suspension a mite.
they should keep me out of mischief for a while.
cheers Patrick
the OE sphere seal is usualy a square section one not round like in your picy's,
i have fitted shed loads of AMTEX/GSF spheres and never had one leak at the matting joint,
i alwasy run a finger full of citro bood over the seal surface before screwing the sphere onto the suspension unit, ans as Xac say's fit the seal into the recess in the end of the suspension unit/strut first, then screw the sphere into place
regards malcolm
i have fitted shed loads of AMTEX/GSF spheres and never had one leak at the matting joint,
i alwasy run a finger full of citro bood over the seal surface before screwing the sphere onto the suspension unit, ans as Xac say's fit the seal into the recess in the end of the suspension unit/strut first, then screw the sphere into place
regards malcolm
And so the forum's conclusion is...
Let me get this quite clear. The combined experience and knowledge of this forum concludes that:
1. There is NO significance in the redesigned 'business end' of the spheres currently on sale from various retailers, GSF et al.
2. The entire integrity and pressure maintenance of the sphere depends, not on an intimate metal-on-metal internal joining when the sphere is tightened fully, but on the 2mm square section rubber 'washer' being squashed between the sphere and the mounting block surface.
By deduction, therefore, all of the disaster that befell my attempt at replacement i.e. seal failure and huge fluid loss, can be attributed without doubt, to the fact that the rubber ring was not squarely located in the mounting block groove, and that when tightened the joint lacked integrity.
OK, I'll go back to GSF and repeat my purchase - double this time - you have convinced me to buy a matching pair of spheres, rather than replace just one corner.
Thank you for all your input. One niggling question remains: as the Xantia was the last Cit to use the re-chargeable sphere based system, why would Citroen go to the trouble and re-tooling expense of making a design change - at the end of the production line - to the internal screw thread area of the spheres, if it had absolutely no effect on anything?
Just as a post-script, I've uploaded a close-up of the current screw-end redesign - also if you compare the two you can see that the surround to the nipple is now a one piece disc rather than split on the old design.
http://s880.photobucket.com/albums/ac10/thregwort/
1. There is NO significance in the redesigned 'business end' of the spheres currently on sale from various retailers, GSF et al.
2. The entire integrity and pressure maintenance of the sphere depends, not on an intimate metal-on-metal internal joining when the sphere is tightened fully, but on the 2mm square section rubber 'washer' being squashed between the sphere and the mounting block surface.
By deduction, therefore, all of the disaster that befell my attempt at replacement i.e. seal failure and huge fluid loss, can be attributed without doubt, to the fact that the rubber ring was not squarely located in the mounting block groove, and that when tightened the joint lacked integrity.
OK, I'll go back to GSF and repeat my purchase - double this time - you have convinced me to buy a matching pair of spheres, rather than replace just one corner.
Thank you for all your input. One niggling question remains: as the Xantia was the last Cit to use the re-chargeable sphere based system, why would Citroen go to the trouble and re-tooling expense of making a design change - at the end of the production line - to the internal screw thread area of the spheres, if it had absolutely no effect on anything?
Just as a post-script, I've uploaded a close-up of the current screw-end redesign - also if you compare the two you can see that the surround to the nipple is now a one piece disc rather than split on the old design.
http://s880.photobucket.com/albums/ac10/thregwort/
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Re: And so the forum's conclusion is...
Yes Absolutely correct on both counts.Thregwort wrote:Let me get this quite clear. The combined experience and knowledge of this forum concludes that:
1. There is NO significance in the redesigned 'business end' of the spheres currently on sale from various retailers, GSF et al.
2. The entire integrity and pressure maintenance of the sphere depends, not on an intimate metal-on-metal internal joining when the sphere is tightened fully, but on the 2mm square section rubber 'washer' being squashed between the sphere and the mounting block surface.
The rubber seals are so good, both on spheres and pipe unions that they only need to be hand-tight to seal. It's the high hydraulic pressure getting behind them and expanding them that does the sealing trick and very effective it is. It self-seals...
Malcolm, I've seen spheres with round O ring seals as in the picture by I've never tried using them again.
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
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Re: And so the forum's conclusion is...
They didn't. GSF sell Amtex spheres which are compatible but not identical as citroen spheres, for instance they only have one membrane in them whereas citroen have spheres with 3.Thregwort wrote: Thank you for all your input. One niggling question remains: as the Xantia was the last Cit to use the re-chargeable sphere based system, why would Citroën go to the trouble and re-tooling expense of making a design change - at the end of the production line - to the internal screw thread area of the spheres, if it had absolutely no effect on anything?
If you look up inside the sphere socket in the strut top, you'll see there is no actual mating surface for the end of the sphere with a hole in it, it just creates a sealed chamber where the LHM pushes up against the end of the sphere into the hole compressing the nitrogen "balloon" inside. The hole also contains dampner discs on the corner sphers but not the other spheres. Also they're regassed via the plug in the other end of the sphere.
If memory serves, C5 spheres will even fit a Xantia, as several people have had the C5 saucer type sphers fitted.
Of concern is the apparent difference in holes in them, your old ones appear to have much larger holes than the new.Thregwort wrote: Just as a post-script, I've uploaded a close-up of the current screw-end redesign - also if you compare the two you can see that the surround to the nipple is now a one piece disc rather than split on the old design.
http://s880.photobucket.com/albums/ac10/thregwort/
The difference is hydractive and non-hydractive, and you don't want to get them mixed up.
LX and SX models were non-hydractive, with small pipes going to the front strut tops and only 6 spheres (5 if it's an old sinker)
VSX and Exclusive were hydractive, with large pipes going to the front strut tops and 8 spheres.
Activas are hydractive but also have two extra spheres to control lean.
Make certain you're getting the right spheres as I once sent my dad to pick some up, he was asked if the car was hydractive, presumed they meant hydraulic and said yes.
How green is the LHM that dribbles out of the strut top sockets when you removed the sphere?
Also, with your engine idling and height set to normal, how long is there between ticks/clicks from the regulator at the front of the engine?
Anything less than 30 seconds suggests you need to replace your front accumulator sphere, and with that it normally means it's time for a rear accumulator change (known as the anti-sink sphere).
Also look around the pump where the metal feed pipe comes out of the larger nut. By now the o-ring under it has gotten old and often leaky, they're peanuts to replace, you'll need 2, one for the nut with the pipe and one for the blanking version further round the pump. The torx ones don't seem to leak.
1.9TD+ SX Xantia Estate (Cassy) running on 100% veg
1.9TD SX Xantia Hatchback (Jenny) running on 100% veg for sale
Laguna II 2.0dCi Privilege (Monty)
DIY sphere tool
1.9TD SX Xantia Hatchback (Jenny) running on 100% veg for sale
Laguna II 2.0dCi Privilege (Monty)
DIY sphere tool