Xantia V6 Automatic gearbox has died

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slavery
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Xantia V6 Automatic gearbox has died

Post by slavery »

My Xantia 3.0 V6 automatic gearbox with 85k miles has packed in.
I would love to put the car back on the road but have been quoted a cost of €2000 to rebuild the auto gearbox. Has anyone experience of converting to a manual box from a Peugot 3.0 or otherwise.
Seems a pity to scrap this wolf in sheeps clothing.

Any advice greatfully received
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Post by Stempy »

Jim's your man, he'll rebuild it for a couple of cans of Stella..... :wink:

http://www.eastment.net/4hp20/4hp20_introduction.htm
It infuriates me to be wrong when I know I'm right

Lexia ponce

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Post by CitroJim »

Stempy wrote:Jim's your man, he'll rebuild it for a couple of cans of Stella..... :wink:

http://www.eastment.net/4hp20/4hp20_introduction.htm
I don't drink :lol: :lol: :lol:

Slavery, How did it fail? If you can give me a blow by blow account of what happened I can offer a rough prognosis.

Fact is, at the minimum you'll need a recon torque converter, a new filter, gaskets and replacement of what's damaged. What's damaged will only be revealed when the 'box is apart.

And where are you located?

As for a manual conversion, you'd need a Pug 406 Manual V6 as a parts donor. It's not quite as simple as first appears.

Have a look at my blog on doing a 4HP20 rebuild. It might make interesting reading...
Jim

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slavery
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Post by slavery »

Hello Jim

Located in Limerick, Ireland.

At the end of a 2 hour motorway journey, when I pulled off the motorway I ground to a halt with no drive. After a minute or so i engaged drive and
had enough drive to struggel 2 miles to a mates house. In the week or so before hand I noticed on occasion a momentry lake of drive or a hunting type of sensation. My mecanhic tells me to scap it, but I thing the V6 sounds great, goes like a rocket, and has no green credentials at all.

How complicated is a manual conversion?

thanks!!
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Post by addo »

Box/clutch/driveshafts/subframe/hydraulic clutch setup/pedal set - I suspect the engine ECU can be "blindsided" with a little nous in electronics.
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Post by slavery »

Hello Addo

What do you suggest??

Regards
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Post by addo »

I'd have a crack at it, if you otherwise like the car and can source some of the bits, and have mechanical knack or a good, affordable garage who don't mind something less ordinary.

First step is signing up for both Service.Citroen and Peugeot ServiceBox. Then you're able to compare differences between manual and auto, plus crosscheck for the same articles used on peugeot models.

If the V6 uses an ML5T manual box for example, you can use the hydraulic clutch from an Activa and driveshafts from the same car. It may be that the auto subframe has adequate clearance already for the manual box (as often autoboxes are fatter). If the nearside chassis rail is appreciably different where the engine mount "hangs" the gearbox, you may need a patch in a donor section there, but again unlikely.

With the ECU, look at what inputs the transmission feeds the motor. On the later 4 cylinder cars, it's all but nothing. Seems to be one wire, but whether it's just a standing voltage saying "I'm here and alive" or sending some sort of pulsed signal, I don't know.
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Post by xantia_v6 »

Is the car a Mk1 or a Mk2? It makes a bit of a difference for a amnual conversion because the Mk2 Engine ECU is locked to the car, but the Mk1 is not.

Does the transmission make any noise, in neutral or in gear?
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Post by CitroJim »

xantia_v6 wrote: Does the transmission make any noise, in neutral or in gear?
This is vital to know. It's both unusual for a 4HP20 to die at 85K and to die so quietly. Loss of drive in such circumstances will be down to a loss of oil pressure, either because the filter is clogged or a valve block problem.

My prognosis would be that the torque converter lock-up clutch has disintegrated and the resulting debris has choked the filter causing a catastrophic loss of oil pressure. Usually though, when this happens the plain bearing the torque converter tail bearing runs in seizes to the tail and spins (although not always, as mine didn't) this can be readily heard by a nasty scream.

Else that, a valve has become broken/damaged in the valve block. Their springs can break.

Another problem occasionally seen is stripped splines in the final drive. Either the splines on the end of the driveshaft strip or the splines in the end of the diff. This will give rise to exactly the symptoms you describe and is worth checking before going too far. If the driveshaft splines show damage the diff will be similarly worn.

Drain the oil and look carefully for debris in it. Also look at the colour and smell it. Good oil should have a golden tint and should smell horribly like cat's pee. If it is black and smells like toast then a clutch has let go and burned up. This can be further reinforced by the presence of black slivers of debris in the oil. Look to for metallic slivers and see if they're magnetic or not. Small amounts of magnetic debris is normal but the presence of non-ferrous debris is a worry.

Overhaul is quite possible and if yours is noise-free then you may have been lucky. As I have said before, the only way to see is to strip the 'box and this is not as difficult as it may first seem.

As for a manual conversion you'll need them following:

A gearbox, clutch and flywheel from a manual V6 Pug 406. There is a specialist breaker in Chesterfield that could provide what you need from the 406. Logistically it might be a bit tricky though...

A pedal box, manual gear selector and cables and clutch hydraulics from a Xantia with a hydraulic clutch (Activa, 2.1TD or 110 HDi) and driveshafts from same. The clutch and flywheeel are different on the 4 cylinder engines and not interchangeable.

Note that the gear selector and cable assemblies are different between the MK1 and MK2 Xantia. Either should be usable but the MK1 assembly is much better but note that the selector assembly is different on the gearbox. Take both the gear selector and the bits it links to on the gearbox and swap over to the pukka V6 gearbox if necessary.

Electrically, I believe the only signal to worry about is the ignition retard control the autobox ECU sends to the engine ECU. I can't be sure but as Adam says, it can be fiddled.

Final minor stuff will be the rewiring of the start inhibit circuit (the bit that prevents the starter being operated in anything but P or N) and the reversing light circuitry.

Definitely not a scrapper!

Has the garage run diagnostics across your gearbox ECU using a Lexia? It would be good to rule out every non-mechanical cause..
Jim

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Post by addo »

Jim - even if it's an S2 car - don't you feel the engine ECU could be re-used with a manual trans? What feedback does the gearbox give to it?
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Post by CitroJim »

addo wrote:Jim - even if it's an S2 car - don't you feel the engine ECU could be re-used with a manual trans? What feedback does the gearbox give to it?
Absloutely yes Adam.

As said above, as far as I know, it's only the retard signal that comes from the transmission ECU. It certainly won't stop the engine running.

Under certain circumstances, the transmission asks for the ignition to be retarded a tad to reduce engine power. Can't recall exactly now but i have the detail stashed away in my documentation somewhere.

I'll study diagrams later but right now I have a major happening on my Activa. As a result of our monsoonal weather :twisted:
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