Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

romie · Post by **romie** » 15 Jul 2010, 12:29

ok, I'm abit stuck.

Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996.
Bosch fuel pump.

Running perfectly well then revs dropped to 400rpm for a minute then engine died.

Fuel tank full.

Restarted with foot to the floor moved 100 yards then engine died again and couldn't be started again after much turning over with good battery although a slight cough could be heard where it might have been trying to start on a cylinder or two.

RAC bloke cracked pipe going to injector. He looked at fuel output from filter and said it was pump or stop solenoid.

In a few other posts I've shown my efforts and success of getting to the stop solenoid with Bosch pump in situ.

Removed stop solenoid internals, reassembled and cracked all injector tops and bled.

Fed diesel directly to injector pump via transparent hose and a high diesel reservoir.

Tried to start, nothing but a few coughs.

Foot to floor the coughs became quicker and finally she fired up at full chat.

Left her in this state for five minutes, gradually eased off the throttle but she couldn't sustain herself and at around 2000rpm she just died.

I was able to do this a few times where after a long time turning her over with my foot to the floor she would start up flat out but just die after the revs got below 2000rpm.

Right.

I'm suspecting the fuel injector pump to be on her way out and so supplying too small and weak pulse of fuel to each injector.

My problem is I don't know how much diesel should be squirting out of the pipe going to the injector.

Cracking off the pipe going to the injector it's hardly noticeable.

Pushing a bit of rubber against the pipe shows a small but definite spray of fuel at a fairly well timed rate coming from the pipe end.

Before I go about changing the fuel pump has anyone got any ideas with this one?

Sorry about the length of this, I wanted to be clear to what I'm up-to.

Below is a youtube video of the one of the outputs from the fuel pump going to the injector - sorry about rubbish quality only had a phone to record on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxhsvZceuh0

Engine firing after turning her over for 3 mins with foot to the floor. She just dies if you drop the revs to below 2000rpm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-plxbS9UOY

I'm open to any suggestions,

Cheers guys

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 15 Jul 2010, 13:18

do you use alternative fuel's/bio/veggy????,

if so it might be worth checking the fuel filtter o se if its blocked,

regards malcolm

romie · Post by **romie** » 15 Jul 2010, 13:27

Never used anything other than diesel from when I got the car at 177k miles.
She's now on 184k miles.

Regarding the filter issues:

Fed diesel directly to injector pump via transparent hose and a high diesel reservoir.

This bypasses all filter and air sucking issues right up to the injector pump.

Thanks for suggestion tho

Has anyone watched the 1st injector feed video, does this look right to you?

h2ocooler · Post by **h2ocooler** » 15 Jul 2010, 14:33

Doesn't look like there is enough fuel there on the video but hard to tell, I suppose it is poss that the stop solenoid is sticking partly closed but to get to it the pump HAS to come off to de-armour it.
Have you checked the belt timing, it could have jumped a tooth or two.
Rob

romie · Post by **romie** » 15 Jul 2010, 14:49

hey h2ocooler, regarding the stop solenoid:

In a few other posts I've shown my efforts and success of getting to the stop solenoid with Bosch pump in situ.

Removed stop solenoid internals, reassembled and cracked all injector tops and bled.

So that's not an issue anymore >:|

I'm also considering timing.

Looking through the Haynes it says I need a tool to check the timing, which of course I don't have access to.

Is there another way of checking timing without a special tool?

I suppose I need to check one of the high pressure fuel squirts and match it to TDC of it's appropriate cylinder.

I suppose if the injector pump jumped a tooth on the cam belt this could show these issues without the valves from bouncing off the pistons - hmm.

Is this common/likely? Any easy quick and dirty way of testing for this?

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 15 Jul 2010, 15:14

Yes very easylilly..

theres Timing PIN HOLES that are M8 bolts (13mm head), one in the Cam shaft sprocket and two in the injection pump sprocket, and an ALLEN Key in the timing hole behind the starter...

This checks your static timing.. If these are ALL in the correct place and you can all bolts in then the car should run, no matter what the pump is set at..

TBH the pump should nothave moved on its locating pins anyway...

A good pump should, when you crack off the pipes on the injectors eject enough fuel to make it spill upwards of the injectors!! and make a nice mess!!

Is the cam belt covered in fuel?? I had a fuel pump with a duff front seal, fuel poured out the front seal, and the engine wouldn't run without pumping the Priming bulb as it was draining the pump faster then it could fill it...

Paul

romie · Post by **romie** » 15 Jul 2010, 15:52

hello, citroenxm.

Great, I'll check that all these holes line up after work

Great help, cheers for that.

Back to the amount of fuel that should be coming out of the injection pump question:
I cracked the nut on top of the injector open and I got a mere periodic ooze. Nothing like a torrent or nice mess. I could post a video of this up if this would help show what's going on? :s

Is it common/likely that the seals inside the pump could have gone or are going and so have a very weak output resulting in a vehicle that can run flat out or nothing at all?

Many thanks for the thoughts on this

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 15 Jul 2010, 16:44

I've found that a small inspection mirror, (about 2 inches in diameter) with a handle is very useful for checking that those bolt holes in the cam and pump sprockets line up. With the mirror angled at 45 degrees you can look from above and check for alignment. Better to use bolts though.

Paul

romie · Post by **romie** » 15 Jul 2010, 20:53

So, the cam gear lines up with the fuel pump gear, but I can't find the hole that locates the flywheel.

I figure that if the cam gear was out of alignment with the flywheel then I'd be hearing a nasty noise from the rocker cover, therefore is it safe to assume we're all lined up statically?

(by the way that 11mm nut at the back of the engine holding on the top timing belt cover was not fun).

I'm still probing around with a bent bit of metal for the flywheel hole...

Otherwise I'm back to a weak output from the fuel pump I guess?

Could anyone crack the top of a distributed pump injector and send in a video PLEASE!!!! This could just prove to me that I'm getting a weak output and I can get on with replacing this pump instead of taking the rest of car apart!! ugh.

Cheers guys

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 15 Jul 2010, 21:48

The hole that locates the flywheel is inbetween the starter motor and the engine. If you imagine the back of the starter motor as a clock face, the hole is where the 9 is. It's about an inch to the left of the starter when viewed from the back of the starter. When probing for it it's a good idea to disconnect the battery negative terminal at the battery first, just in case you short it out.

I couldn't find the hole either so I removed the starter motor. It's a bit of a pain but the hole is obvious once the starter is out. If you're not removing the starter then you might just be able to see the hole from underneath the car. It's an 8mm hole but it's difficult to get an 8mm rod in at first to try it with something smaller like a 5mm rod or bit of copper pipe. The pipe going downwards from the oil filler cap usually gets in the way so putting a drill in the hole is difficult as the drill is straight and too long. I would recommend putting a bend of about 30 degrees in the end of the rod about 3 inches away from the end so that it clears the oil filler pipe.

You need to push the rod in while turning the crankshaft. If you can see the exposed ring gear at some point then watch the ring gear and you should see the slot for the rod going around to give you some idea where the slot is. Top Dead Centre (TDC) occurs every 2nd rotation of the crankshaft. So, when you get the rod to drop into the flywheel the first time you may be at TDC or you may have to turn the crankshaft one more turn.

Paul

romie · Post by **romie** » 15 Jul 2010, 23:01

ahhh. Now that's a good explanation of where the hole is. Why didn't Haynes just say that instead of putting that silly picture up

OK will crack on with that tomorrow, cheers

romie · Post by **romie** » 16 Jul 2010, 00:01

Right I've found an example of how much fuel should be coming out of the injection pump.

http://www.youtube.com/v/pUnMel8EdnQ

Is this amount pretty much what I should be expecting from my Bosch injector pump?

If so this is definitely NOT what I'm getting from the top of my injector!! And so it looks like worn internals of the pump.

Can someone confirm this?

Thanks

Post by **RichardW** » 16 Jul 2010, 09:57

Dunno about the injection pump, but...

To find the flywheel timing hole get a long (1m or so) piece of 8mm bar, chamfer the end, and bend the last 4" or so up by about 30°. If you look at the block behind the starter between the starter body and the solenoid you should (just about!) be able to see the start of 'channel' cast into the block - this leads to the timing hole. Carefully insert your rod into the channel, and it should guide it straight into the timing hole. Once you are in you should be able to bang th rod on the flywheel - it makes a distinctive ringing sound. Now, with the OS jacked up (and NS wheel either on the ground or restrained so it can't turn - otherwise the diff does its job and it just goes rouns backwards!), engage 4th gear, and then turn the OS wheel with your left hand whilst pushing the rod into the timing hole. If you've got the covers off you can watch the timing hole on the cam to get an idea when you are near - the timing position on this is about 4 O'clock. You should get the pin in first time past using this method.

Another thought that came to mind - have you checked that the alternator / AC comp / HP pump are still turning when the engine is cranked? I had an alternator seize on a BX TD and it stalled the engine which then couldn't be restarted till the belt was removed....

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 16 Jul 2010, 11:10

I think you're right to suggest there's not enough fuel coming out of the injector pipe on cranking.

Take out the stop solenoid, remove the plunger and spring and replace solenoid. Remember, if the engine starts, you'll have to stop it using the stop lever on the front of the pump.

If this makes no difference, we can rule out the stop solenoid sticking.

Hopefully, you would have by now checked the timing which, IMO, leaves just the pump itself. Has it been opened up and/or tampered with as they're very reliable units IMO?

romie · Post by **romie** » 16 Jul 2010, 11:19

The timing holes on the cam and fuel pump gears line up perfectly. Thanks for the advice on finding the flywheel hole which I'll attack after work tonight.

Regarding the Stop Solenoid:

In a few other posts I've shown my efforts and success of getting to the stop solenoid with Bosch pump in situ.

Removed stop solenoid internals, reassembled and cracked all injector tops and bled.

So the Stop Solenoid can't be a problem any more

I still don't know if I'm getting a correct amount of fuel from the injector pump.

If the video I posted up isn't clear enough, I could put a bit of transparent tubing on the end of the injector pipe going to the injector to actually measure the quantity after a few cranks?