Quirky Xantia
Moderator: RichardW
Quirky Xantia
Hi Everyone,
I haven't written much on here, but often watch from afar.
Wondering if I could pick your collective brains please. My Xantia is currently showing some steering / suspension quirks (amongst all its less urgent faults). I'm hoping for some opinions please, and trying to work out how many of the symptoms may be related. Symptoms as follows:
1) Intermittent very rough ride. If I get out and try the suspension at both ends, often the back feels very hard, but often seems to free up after a few hard bounces. The front, similarly can often feel very hard as well. A couple of cycles of applying weight, letting it correct, removing weight, letting it correct etc, often seems to improve it for a while. The front also seems to settle at different heights (although I haven't proved it yet). I suspect that the back may too.
2) Handling of corners or roundabouts with less than good road surfaces is becoming nasty - especially in the wet. The car appears to try and jump out of the turn when it hits a rut. As you might expect, it is worse when the ride is particularly rough.
3) Loud groaning when turning - especially turning right.
4) Suspension - especially the front, when raising or lowering, sometimes goes up and down fairly smoothly, sometimes in fairly smooth steps, and sometimes in jerks.
All six spheres are new (done myself quite recently), and when the car is behaving, the spheres feel good. I have tried dousing both height correctors several times - with WD40 and spray grease as well. I'm wondering whether the hard back suspension may be a clue to a dodgy rear height corrector, or the problems at the front to a front height corrector. Surely it can't be both ?
I am also running with hydraflush at the moment.
Both steering tie rods and both track rod ends are relatively new and no perceptible play. Replaced in stages over the last eighteen months or so. I can remember the groaning happening before. It seemed to have eased up until recently, but seems to have returned with a vengeance since I replaced the front tyres (Goodrich replaced with Michelin Energy). The handling - if anything also seemed to get worse with the tyre change. I had the tracking done at the same time, as it was just after I changed the last track rod end. Greasing the struts seems to make no difference to the groaning, and it seems to be nearside only. Could it possibly be a lower balljoint or drop link ?
If it is within the bounds of possibility for it to be a droplink, could it maybe be stiff, and causing pulling on the anti roll bar - possibly "fooling" the height corrector as well ?
Can anyone thing of something else which could make both ends go hard at the same time (OO Err !). I'm thinking maybe something like a sticky anti sink valve - or something which could cause fluid to be trapped under pressure in the suspension circuits. Also wondered if pump trouble could cause these kinds of symptoms.
With regards to the jumping. Although it is better when the suspension moves more freely, I think either the wishbone bushes or lower balljoints need attention - maybe both. Unless these, and some of the other symptoms could be due to a sticky strut perhaps. The O/S wishbone rear bush which is the side which feels worse on the road, looks like it might be starting to de-adhere when levered (rubber coming away from outer casing). Not 100% sure. I bought two used wishbones courtesy of eBay, but the bushes look worse than the ones on the car. I also managed to round off one of the swivel / ball joint to hub carrier nuts, and have so far failed to crack it. Is there any easy way to check the lower ball joints. Presumably it should be obvious once the stud is released from the hub carrier, but it would be good to be able to diagnose before disassembly.
Sorry, I know I'm rambling in a sort of stream of consciousness fashion, but any thoughts or input on the above will be gratefully received.
Thanks in Anticipation !
Ian
I haven't written much on here, but often watch from afar.
Wondering if I could pick your collective brains please. My Xantia is currently showing some steering / suspension quirks (amongst all its less urgent faults). I'm hoping for some opinions please, and trying to work out how many of the symptoms may be related. Symptoms as follows:
1) Intermittent very rough ride. If I get out and try the suspension at both ends, often the back feels very hard, but often seems to free up after a few hard bounces. The front, similarly can often feel very hard as well. A couple of cycles of applying weight, letting it correct, removing weight, letting it correct etc, often seems to improve it for a while. The front also seems to settle at different heights (although I haven't proved it yet). I suspect that the back may too.
2) Handling of corners or roundabouts with less than good road surfaces is becoming nasty - especially in the wet. The car appears to try and jump out of the turn when it hits a rut. As you might expect, it is worse when the ride is particularly rough.
3) Loud groaning when turning - especially turning right.
4) Suspension - especially the front, when raising or lowering, sometimes goes up and down fairly smoothly, sometimes in fairly smooth steps, and sometimes in jerks.
All six spheres are new (done myself quite recently), and when the car is behaving, the spheres feel good. I have tried dousing both height correctors several times - with WD40 and spray grease as well. I'm wondering whether the hard back suspension may be a clue to a dodgy rear height corrector, or the problems at the front to a front height corrector. Surely it can't be both ?
I am also running with hydraflush at the moment.
Both steering tie rods and both track rod ends are relatively new and no perceptible play. Replaced in stages over the last eighteen months or so. I can remember the groaning happening before. It seemed to have eased up until recently, but seems to have returned with a vengeance since I replaced the front tyres (Goodrich replaced with Michelin Energy). The handling - if anything also seemed to get worse with the tyre change. I had the tracking done at the same time, as it was just after I changed the last track rod end. Greasing the struts seems to make no difference to the groaning, and it seems to be nearside only. Could it possibly be a lower balljoint or drop link ?
If it is within the bounds of possibility for it to be a droplink, could it maybe be stiff, and causing pulling on the anti roll bar - possibly "fooling" the height corrector as well ?
Can anyone thing of something else which could make both ends go hard at the same time (OO Err !). I'm thinking maybe something like a sticky anti sink valve - or something which could cause fluid to be trapped under pressure in the suspension circuits. Also wondered if pump trouble could cause these kinds of symptoms.
With regards to the jumping. Although it is better when the suspension moves more freely, I think either the wishbone bushes or lower balljoints need attention - maybe both. Unless these, and some of the other symptoms could be due to a sticky strut perhaps. The O/S wishbone rear bush which is the side which feels worse on the road, looks like it might be starting to de-adhere when levered (rubber coming away from outer casing). Not 100% sure. I bought two used wishbones courtesy of eBay, but the bushes look worse than the ones on the car. I also managed to round off one of the swivel / ball joint to hub carrier nuts, and have so far failed to crack it. Is there any easy way to check the lower ball joints. Presumably it should be obvious once the stud is released from the hub carrier, but it would be good to be able to diagnose before disassembly.
Sorry, I know I'm rambling in a sort of stream of consciousness fashion, but any thoughts or input on the above will be gratefully received.
Thanks in Anticipation !
Ian
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Doesn't help, but my Escort does the same on rough bumpy roads when cornering too, 'jumping' out of the turn when hitting a rut or bump. I've changed lower struts, tyres, droplinks and had tracking done. I'm now thinking the front struts are shot... Will be interesting to see what turns out to be causing your trouble.
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Hi,
My Dad's Xantia had a very similar problem to this. It ended up being a pig of a problem to trace but, if I remember rightly, turned out it was related to some kind of contamination that had turned to gunge in the hydraulic fluid, presumably as a result of a bodged service. This was causing blockages and constrictions.
Car was doing all the things you describe and raising at the front one day but not the back, then vice versa the next day! Was like a comedy car, but not funny to drive! Was sorted by flushing out the system three times over a 2 week period I think. Is fine now, works perfectly.
Might not be telling a perfect story there cos it wasn't my car, but that's how I recall it.
My Dad's Xantia had a very similar problem to this. It ended up being a pig of a problem to trace but, if I remember rightly, turned out it was related to some kind of contamination that had turned to gunge in the hydraulic fluid, presumably as a result of a bodged service. This was causing blockages and constrictions.
Car was doing all the things you describe and raising at the front one day but not the back, then vice versa the next day! Was like a comedy car, but not funny to drive! Was sorted by flushing out the system three times over a 2 week period I think. Is fine now, works perfectly.
Might not be telling a perfect story there cos it wasn't my car, but that's how I recall it.
WAINY
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Height Corrector in itself will NOT cause a hard ride..
Hard ride is either shot spheres, which you have changed, or the Height itself too high, thats all, the height corrector ONLY sets the car height as instructed by the linkages that sit around it.. and then regulates that setting...
When you changed the Spheres did you also do a Hydraulic Fluid change aswell??
Paul
Hard ride is either shot spheres, which you have changed, or the Height itself too high, thats all, the height corrector ONLY sets the car height as instructed by the linkages that sit around it.. and then regulates that setting...
When you changed the Spheres did you also do a Hydraulic Fluid change aswell??
Paul
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Morning All,
Thanks for the contributions so far.
Paul, Although it probably didn't show in the original post, I understand the function of the height correctors, and that they can only cause a hard ride by affecting the height. I do believe that it is suffering from erratic height - though I am not absolutely certain of that at the moment. I am trying to prove one way or the other, but due to height correction when you get out of the car etc, it is hard to know for sure where the height was whilst driving. The back goes absolutely rock hard on occasions, and can barely be moved. After a few good hard pushes, it usually releases and then bounces normally. I "think" that when it goes rock hard, the back is a little higher than normal, but I have still to prove for absolute certain. I am trying to develop a system of "how many fingers" - between tyres and wheel arches, to do a very quick comparison of height at various times, and will try to do that with the rear - next time it happens. I think I proved it previously by the height of the towbar compared to my kneecap. I know none of these are particularly good ways to measure, but they are usually done when I'm driving and have to pull over to try and free the suspension up a bit.
Apart from the rear though, the ride height at the front also seems a bit erratic. If I apply weight, let it correct, remove weight, let it correct again etc, it doesn't always seem to settle back to the same height.
Could it be that - if the rear height corrector is misbehaving - causing the back to rise, it is also pulling the front up slightly, and the front height corrector is trying to correct for that ?
I didn't change the fluid at the same time as the spheres. I did the rear spheres, anti sink sphere and accumulator first, then did front spheres and hydraflush a couple of weeks later. The front spheres and hydraflush were a few days apart, but I can't remember for absolute certain which I did first
Are you thinking that contamination from the old fluid could be blocking (or partially blocking), the damper holes in the spheres ?
Dnsey, I have wondered about the rear trailing arm bearings - although I am almost sure that if they are bad, it is only one of the issues. Is there an easy way to test them fairly definitively ? The only comments I've seen mention looking at the angle of the rear wheels to the vertical. When I have tried to look at that, it looks as if they lean a bit, but then I look at other cars around, and they seem to look similar - so it might be my judgement. At least one of the rear brakes binds, but I am fairly sure that is the usual corrosion between the rear arm and the caliper. The inner pad is very tight (at least a new one is) - even with the piston levered all the way in. So much so that I had to remove the shim on one side when I last did the pads.
One last question for now. With regards to just the rear suspension, could a problem with an electrovalve cause the solid rear suspension - without affecting the ride height ?
Thanks Again Everyone:
Ian
Thanks for the contributions so far.
Paul, Although it probably didn't show in the original post, I understand the function of the height correctors, and that they can only cause a hard ride by affecting the height. I do believe that it is suffering from erratic height - though I am not absolutely certain of that at the moment. I am trying to prove one way or the other, but due to height correction when you get out of the car etc, it is hard to know for sure where the height was whilst driving. The back goes absolutely rock hard on occasions, and can barely be moved. After a few good hard pushes, it usually releases and then bounces normally. I "think" that when it goes rock hard, the back is a little higher than normal, but I have still to prove for absolute certain. I am trying to develop a system of "how many fingers" - between tyres and wheel arches, to do a very quick comparison of height at various times, and will try to do that with the rear - next time it happens. I think I proved it previously by the height of the towbar compared to my kneecap. I know none of these are particularly good ways to measure, but they are usually done when I'm driving and have to pull over to try and free the suspension up a bit.
Apart from the rear though, the ride height at the front also seems a bit erratic. If I apply weight, let it correct, remove weight, let it correct again etc, it doesn't always seem to settle back to the same height.
Could it be that - if the rear height corrector is misbehaving - causing the back to rise, it is also pulling the front up slightly, and the front height corrector is trying to correct for that ?
I didn't change the fluid at the same time as the spheres. I did the rear spheres, anti sink sphere and accumulator first, then did front spheres and hydraflush a couple of weeks later. The front spheres and hydraflush were a few days apart, but I can't remember for absolute certain which I did first
Are you thinking that contamination from the old fluid could be blocking (or partially blocking), the damper holes in the spheres ?
Dnsey, I have wondered about the rear trailing arm bearings - although I am almost sure that if they are bad, it is only one of the issues. Is there an easy way to test them fairly definitively ? The only comments I've seen mention looking at the angle of the rear wheels to the vertical. When I have tried to look at that, it looks as if they lean a bit, but then I look at other cars around, and they seem to look similar - so it might be my judgement. At least one of the rear brakes binds, but I am fairly sure that is the usual corrosion between the rear arm and the caliper. The inner pad is very tight (at least a new one is) - even with the piston levered all the way in. So much so that I had to remove the shim on one side when I last did the pads.
One last question for now. With regards to just the rear suspension, could a problem with an electrovalve cause the solid rear suspension - without affecting the ride height ?
Thanks Again Everyone:
Ian
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Your last comment answers my next question, it is hydractive, it sounds as though you have a fault with the hydractive electrical system and its switching from soft to hard unasked. Try another ECU if you have access to one, or borrow one from somone elses car. You can test the operation by opening a door when the car has been parked and stopped for a few minutes, you should have abut 6" of movement on the rear with the door open (soft mode) and about 2"-3" with it closed, after allowing about a minute for it to switch.
Peter
Peter
Hi Peter,Peter.N. wrote:Your last comment answers my next question, it is hydractive, it sounds as though you have a fault with the hydractive electrical system and its switching from soft to hard unasked. Try another ECU if you have access to one, or borrow one from somone elses car. You can test the operation by opening a door when the car has been parked and stopped for a few minutes, you should have abut 6" of movement on the rear with the door open (soft mode) and about 2"-3" with it closed, after allowing about a minute for it to switch.
Peter
Don't the hydractives have more than six spheres. Maybe I'm not describing it correctly. When I mention electrovalves, I think I'm only talking about anti sink. It does do the sort of whirr click thing when I turn the ignition off, and leave the door open for a period of time.
I'm also wondering about wiring. Thinking back, the cable tray on one side of the car started to drop away a while back. The cable tray started to drag on the road at one point, and I ended up removing it and tieing the cables (I think they're cables anyway) to the bodywork.
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The noise you describe sounds like suspension electrovalves in which case you should have three spheres at the rear plus anti sink if you have it, none of my XMs have, and three spheres at the front plus the accumulator sphere, a total of eight. The centre spheres which very often get overlooked ar responsible for the soft ride, but never having owned a Xantia I could be completely wrong Does it have a 'sport mode' switch?
Peter
Peter
Hi Peter,
It only has four suspension sphere in total (two front two rear) - plus the centre anti sink / rear accumulator, and the front accumulator.
It doesn't have a sport mode switch either. Or at least if it does, I haven't found it, but I am fairly certain that the clicking is from some kind of electrically operated valves at the rear.
Cheers:
Ian
It only has four suspension sphere in total (two front two rear) - plus the centre anti sink / rear accumulator, and the front accumulator.
It doesn't have a sport mode switch either. Or at least if it does, I haven't found it, but I am fairly certain that the clicking is from some kind of electrically operated valves at the rear.
Cheers:
Ian
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The wirrring noise could be your fuel pump.
With 6 spheres total it's not Hydractive. So, what you describe isn't so easy to diagnose.
From what you describe I'd expect to find that, at the rear, one end of the height corrector plastic dog bone has flipped off. This would give uncontrolled rear ride height.
If the dogbone is still fitted then possibly the dogbone's clamp on the rear anti roll bar could be loose, if this moves around the roll bar then your rear ride height may vary as you describe.
Take the usual axle stand precautions and get underneath the rear. Check the anti roll bar dogbone clamp for tightness. Check the dogbone is fitted. Clean the rear height corrector with a paint brush and spray it with WD40 or similar to lube it.
Do similar checks at the front end.
See what happens and tell us more.
Good luck.
With 6 spheres total it's not Hydractive. So, what you describe isn't so easy to diagnose.
From what you describe I'd expect to find that, at the rear, one end of the height corrector plastic dog bone has flipped off. This would give uncontrolled rear ride height.
If the dogbone is still fitted then possibly the dogbone's clamp on the rear anti roll bar could be loose, if this moves around the roll bar then your rear ride height may vary as you describe.
Take the usual axle stand precautions and get underneath the rear. Check the anti roll bar dogbone clamp for tightness. Check the dogbone is fitted. Clean the rear height corrector with a paint brush and spray it with WD40 or similar to lube it.
Do similar checks at the front end.
See what happens and tell us more.
Good luck.
Cheers, Kev
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02 plate C5 2.2 Hdi Exclusive SE (now 170k miles 03/21).
Used to have:- Xantia 1.9 TurboD SX. 1996 Blue & 1998 Silver Activa. + 1992 BX TZD Turbo.