Got a loud rattle around the serpentine/aux belt area[FIXED]

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Post by RichardW »

Xac wrote:Just to go over terminology.

The belt you can see in the photos is the auxilary belt AKA serpentine belt.

In your first photo the item arrowed is the auto tensioner.
In your second photo the item arrowed is the eccentric tensioner. Given how rusty it looks, I'd replace it anyway by removing the allen bolt (it's either a 6 or 8 and probably will need some persuasion).
To the left of the eccentric is the big crank pulley, which from the photo looks like it's the solid kind.
Nah, it's an HDi, so it WILL be a rubber sandwich type pulley - you can see the grove to the right of the photo which has a lug in it (which you can't see):?
Xac wrote:Now, on to how to remove the belt.
Look at the auto tensioner in your first photo, and at the top left corner f the pulley you'll see a dark patch/recess. This is a square hole for your ratchet.
No, not on an HDi - the tensioner is turned via the hex boss in the centre. It's almost impossible to get at, as it's right in line with the chassis rail. Another David, on another thread (this one) managed to turn it back with a flat flexi head ratchet spanner. Alternatively, there is a peg hole at the back of the tensioner, so you could turn the eccentric tensioner from under the wing, whilst trying to insert a pin (Haynes recommends a 4mm allen key) in the spring tensioner. Of course you will either need an assistant, or 4 foot long arms like an orangutan :lol:

Running it without the belt on may not take the noise away if it is the pulley itself.

When you've worked out how to do it, you can come round and do mine, as the alternator is howling like a good 'un now!
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Post by Xaccers »

RichardW wrote:
Xac wrote:Just to go over terminology.

The belt you can see in the photos is the auxilary belt AKA serpentine belt.

In your first photo the item arrowed is the auto tensioner.
In your second photo the item arrowed is the eccentric tensioner. Given how rusty it looks, I'd replace it anyway by removing the allen bolt (it's either a 6 or 8 and probably will need some persuasion).
To the left of the eccentric is the big crank pulley, which from the photo looks like it's the solid kind.
Nah, it's an HDi, so it WILL be a rubber sandwich type pulley - you can see the grove to the right of the photo which has a lug in it (which you can't see):?
Can you describe the sandwich to me? Is it two discs with a rubber disk between them, or is it like on Cassy with an inner ring, ring of rubber, then outer ring?
Xac wrote:Now, on to how to remove the belt.
Look at the auto tensioner in your first photo, and at the top left corner f the pulley you'll see a dark patch/recess. This is a square hole for your ratchet.
No, not on an HDi - the tensioner is turned via the hex boss in the centre. It's almost impossible to get at, as it's right in line with the chassis rail. Another David, on another thread (this one) managed to turn it back with a flat flexi head ratchet spanner. Alternatively, there is a peg hole at the back of the tensioner, so you could turn the eccentric tensioner from under the wing, whilst trying to insert a pin (Haynes recommends a 4mm allen key) in the spring tensioner. Of course you will either need an assistant, or 4 foot long arms like an orangutan :lol:[/quote]

Does removing the cam belt end engine mount help by allowing you to move the engine up and down on a jack?
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Got a loud rattle around the serpentine/aux belt area

Post by Gregg1100 »

Hi,
I had the same sounding rattle as you have on your car. You could see the belt jumping on the bottom area of it. I bought a tension roller, but when I had the job done, it turned out that the eye of the tensioner spring had cracked, allowing it to slap up and down on its retaining bolt.
The bolt was half eaten away, as was the bush inside the eye of the spring. The new spring was £81 ( with a new bolt ). There was nothing wrong with the tensioner roller, but as I had already bought it, it was fitted to car. I meant to ask to keep the spring for a photo , but forgot.
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Got a loud rattle around the serpentine/aux belt area

Post by Gregg1100 »

Sorry---didn't see car was an HDI. :oops:
But useful post for those with a 1.9TD
Whilst looking at the HDI belt tension area on the CIT site, I found no mention of a tensioner spring---how is the belt adjusted for tension ??
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Post by RichardW »

Not sure how the pulley is set up - I think it's like the ribbed belt drive edge is bonded internally to the front disc which is in turn bolted to the crank. Not a very convincing desctription, but I can't think how else to describe it. You can ID these pulleys as they have a long groove in them with a lug in the centre (behind the spanner in HDIDave's picture) and are inscribed with the words "DO NOT RUN WITHOUT BELT". Taking the top mount off may well allow some vertical engine movement, but it is not as easy as the 1.9TD as the HDi 110 uses the same torque reaction mount as the 2.0T with the leg going back onto the wing.

The top tensioner has some sort of internal spring - presumably a coil type, this maintains tension once set. Initial tension is achieved by rotating the bottom eccentric tensioner then tightening it up. There is a setting hole in the top tensioner that should be free when tension correctly set - and looking at mine there appears to be a pointer mark, which, interestingly, is still lined up although mine is still running on the 9 year / 100k miles old Aux belt.

Of course this all theroretical :lol: , as I have not had it apart. Yet!
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Post by HDI Dave »

Mike,you trying to give me a heart attack? lol. I've not touched the timing,and i've run it with the belt off,hopefully the aux belt has nowt to do with the timing!
citroenxm wrote:FIRST Test, take the Aux belt off, then run the engine again.. If it has stopped then its the crank pully.. A very common failure item on HDi's
Paul
Paul,have you got this the wrong way round :wink:

Right, i eventually got the belt off.Bottom tensioner went with a right crack,with a bar on the 8 mill allen key. Swivelled it upwards and could just about slide the belt off the small bottom tensioner. Looks like it's gonna be real tight getting it back on,if i just reverse the same proceedure.
Ran the engine beltless. Noise gone. So it can't be the bottom pulley can it? it's the only one 'in the loop'.
So it's got to be on the belt 'loop'. All seem ok,alternater,top roller etc,but, what's the large item right of the bottom tensioner? The wide middle,grooved part spins ok,but it's end can move,and make..metaly noises!
anyway,bit of a breakthrough: The small bottom tensioner in my pic spins ok,but, it has some lateral play in it, and if i grab it at the bottom and wiggle it,like checking a wheel bearing, my original metallic hammering sound is almost replicated :D
Got to be that isn't it. 40 odd quid at Gsf,none on 'the bay'.Wonder if it's worth checking the scrappers.I'll replace the belt,9 quid at Gsf.

Oh and yes,the bottom pulley is the rubber sandwich type.Seems ok.
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Post by Xaccers »

Aircon is the large thing to the right of the lower tensioner.
It shoul spin fine as it's clutch shouldn't be engaged.
If you've no history of the aircon being serviced, then it's a good idea to get it done so the lube gets changed.
Teh_Agent had a dead one which eventually seized and burst into flames as he was driving.
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Post by Xantidote »

Nothing lasts for ever Dave. Personally, if I found a doubtful bearing, especially one that could have a catastrophic knock-on effect if it failed, then I'd replace it as a matter of course, particularly bearing in mind it's not easily accesible. New one will give you peace of mind :)

Without wishing to hijack the thread, can someone confirm that with all the problems with the HDI rubber sandwich pulley, that it can't be replaced with a metal pulley (eg. off a 1.9TD). Presumably the Citroen design engineers had a reason for specifying the sandwich type. Is there more shock on the serpentine belt with all the auxillaries?
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Post by HDI Dave »

:? :? Car's driving me nuts :lolhit:

1./ All systems connected = loud hammering (like with a small hammer)
2./ Belt off,ie,just the crank pulley spinning = Quiet...ish
3./ New bottom tensioner:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0640170790
and belt back on = ..................hammering again :roll:
4./ Drove the car 10 miles,in short bursts, with it hammering. Then it stopped doing it. Drove for another 10 miles ish,still quiet. Hmm. Ran it today with the plastic cover off,in the drive = quiet. Put the air con on and my hammering reappears :shock:

New belt was a pig to get on,was a tad smaller than the old one..stretchage,with age? Top tensioner was also a joy...NOT!!!
RichardW - Thanks for the link/tip..guess what, I dug out my ratchet spanners...and 15 and 16 mill one's gone awol! haha,typical...
Rigged up a bodge - a flat 15mm spanner can just fit on the pulley nut, then a long sosket extension fits nicely into the 16mill other end of the spanner. Then there's enough leverage to force the tensioner back,towards the windscreen,and wedge it with a piece of wood...oh well,should make it easier next time i whip the belt off :P

Image

Pulley? It looks as old as methusala,but i can't find any drastic play in it.
Good question from Martin,i was wondering the same thing myself:
Xantidote wrote: Without wishing to hijack the thread, can someone confirm that with all the problems with the HDI rubber sandwich pulley, that it can't be replaced with a metal pulley (eg. off a 1.9TD). Presumably the Citroen design engineers had a reason for specifying the sandwich type. Is there more shock on the serpentine belt with all the auxillaries?
There's plenty pulleys on fleabay,but i can't tell if they're the sandwich type, although they do say they fit my model:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT

^^ BTW, I seem to have 3 different prices from GSF... As above,on the bay,£40.
When i enquired last week,in our local gsf shop,cutler heights lane,Bradford, sure it was 90 odd quid?
And on their shop site it's £67 or something!!!

* edit * ahh, it only showed me one price before,£67. Maybe i messed up on my search, it's the other (?) hdi that's dearer..
http://secure.gsfcarparts.com/shop/results.asp

023PC0010 CRANKSHAFT PULLEY XANTIA HDI 67.00

023PC0012 CRANKSH PULLEY XANTIA 2.0 HDi 39.50
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Post by JohnD »

Anybody tried one of these solid conversion pulleys?
http://www.lynxpowerengineering.co.uk/engineering.aspx
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Post by CitroJim »

JohnD wrote:Anybody tried one of these solid conversion pulleys?
Be careful as the pulley also acts as a harmonic damper and this very important function will be lost with a solid one.

A lacking harmonic damper can increase vibration at certain speeds and reduce considerably the fatigue life of the crankshaft...
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Post by HDI Dave »

Cheers for the explanation Jim,
I was thinking it must be for extra damping etc myself.

I am however a bit confused with Johns link:

"Peugeot Alloy Billet Crank Pullies
These pullies were designed to replace the stock rubber/metal bonded design, which commonly 'slip' whereby the rubber deteriorates over time and detaches from the metal surround. This can lead to the timing hole being dislocated, which, if un-noticed, can result in the engine being incorrectly timed, resulting in catastrophic cylinder head damage."

I thought this pulley just runs the auxiliary belt,not the timing belt..that's a separate belt aint it? Sorry for sounding thick :oops:

We've not been using the car much,begging lifts etc,but i don't like relying on others.
How long will it last,knocking,anyone know? The wife keeps wanting to use it :roll: Flippin walk to the shop woman!

I thought if it failed, it wouldn't ruin the timing/engine etc :?

Of coarse i'm sourcing a pulley asap :wink:
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Post by JohnD »

HDI Dave wrote:



I thought this pulley just runs the auxiliary belt,not the timing belt..that's a separate belt aint it?



I thought if it failed, it wouldn't ruin the timing/engine etc :?

:
You're right - the pulley runs the auxiliary belt and not the timing belt. That's on its own teeth behind the pulley. If the crank pulley collapses, there's a chance that bits of the auxiliary belt could pull off the timing belt.
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Post by sportingfiat »

ive got exactly the same problem mate

so far ive had the crank pulley and they tensioners and the belt replaced

going in next week to hev new cambelt so asked them to investigate, will let you know the outcome as already spent about 130 on parts alone and might save you some cash


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Post by HDI Dave »

Cheers Andy,
I apreciate your input, i was begining to think it could be something other than the pulley myself,although pulley failure seems common.

got this on order,although it will be next week when it comes:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWNX:IT

Hopefully it should cure it. If not,then i guess i'm in the same boat as you.
Please do let me know how you get on.
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