HDI 110 engine in Xantia & C5

Xantidote · Post by **Xantidote** » 11 May 2010, 22:05

The last Xantias with the 110 engine had a certain level of electronic technology, ecus etc. Can anyone tell me whether this was carried straight over to the C5, or is the C5 is burdened with much more in the way of additional electronics & sophistication?

As the number of Xantias dwindles, I'm thinking we'll all eventually be forced to accept all this electronic sophistication, like it or not.

Post by **RichardW** » 11 May 2010, 22:17

The engine itself probably doesn't carry much more in the way of electronics, being substantially the same unit, but the car in general is saddled with multiplex wiring and ECUs all over the place. Then there is the suspension which is electronically controlled and driven (even in the lesser 2 spheres / axle cars). DIY work on one of these is really going to need access to a Lexia if things start to go a bit wonky. Which they will - these are French electrics after all!!

Xantidote · Post by **Xantidote** » 11 May 2010, 22:27

Thanks Richard - definitely not good news then

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 11 May 2010, 22:33

Xantia has a LOT LOT less ECU's on them...

Unfortunally, theres too many on the C5 to go wrong..

The Xantia does not have a BSi unit, which is basically a AI Fuse box/ communication unit..

The Xantia HDi IS the one to go for!

Even the C5 has an ECU for indicators and wipers stalks!! Im not keen on the electronics on the C5, but do like the cars.. I dont like them enough to want to rush outand buy one, while theres Xantias about Ill have them instead.. Im not worried at all about have a newer car every few years, the age doesn't bother me..

My best advice: Go for a 110bhp Xantia, as new as possible (Up to Y reg 2001) and in best condition you can find and keep on top of it, you shouldn't ever need a C5 then..

Paul

XantiaDaveEire · Post by **XantiaDaveEire** » 11 May 2010, 23:56

Same here id rather have a well taken care of turbo diesel than the Hdi..the reg is just a number to me

Cant beat a good Xantia

BX · Post by BX » 12 May 2010, 00:14

The C5 suspension is far more reliable than the xantia. No problems with anti sink sphere and valve. No leaky doseur valve to cause the rear of a car which has remained up overnight to suddenly drop to the ground after it is started in the morning. The hydraulic pump dosn't piddle green pee all over. Spheres last a lifetime.
Yes in common with all newer PSA cars they do have a BSI which occasionally throws the toys out of the pram. The solution is to do the full reset by disconnecting the battery. The method is detailed in other threads on this site. Most real problems are caused by poor earths on the NS inner wing. Running an additional earth to the airflow meter & the engine ecu sorts mst C5s which have recurrent problems (diagnostics usually point to the pedal position sensor). Many C5s clock up huge mileages without problems.

PS most other manufacturers are now fitting BSIs but call them amongst other things the body computer.

wheeler · Post by **wheeler** » 12 May 2010, 09:34

citroenxm wrote:
The Xantia does not have a BSi unit, which is basically a AI Fuse box/ communication unit..

No, but a mk2 does have a CPH unit which is a primative form of the BSI and is just as un-DIY able without a Lexia as a BSI. Depending on which CPH is fitted one of them is even more expensive than a mk1 C5 BSI and the others are not far off. Just like the BSI you cant re-use a 2nd hand one either without swapping the keys & injection ECU/pump module aswell. Luckily the other thing BSI's & CPH's have in common is that failures of them are a lot rarer that people think. Unfortunately though the BSI is usually the first thing to get the blame for any electrical faults on multiplexed cars. As already said most manufacturers are using multiplexing, the whole current citroen range apart from the C1 is mux'd.

As far as the 2.0 HDi engine goes the engine is identical & so is the injection system (if it's bosch) apart from its missing a few sensors/components that it doesent need due to them being multiplexed from elswhere.
Although i think xantia suspension is great I think the C5's is a big improvement & reliability is probably better. I think BX's comments above pretty much hit the nail on the head. Yes there is a BHI unit but failures are pretty rare, there is far less pipework, no height correctors to sieze, less spheres. contrary to the popular myth you don't need a Lexia to depressureize & pressurize the system or bleed it.

steelcityuk · Post by **steelcityuk** » 12 May 2010, 09:51

I'll agree with the comments about the C5 suspension being more reliable, I went from a Xantia HDi Exclusive to a couple of XMs to a C5 HDi then back to XMs. The Xantia had the worse ride of the lot despite many many hours spent stripping, cleaning, flushing the hydraulics and testing the electrics. The C5 was great, reliable, comfortable and very normal. I went back to XMs because the C5 didn't need anything doing to it, never went wrong and drove like a normal car.

Don't get me wrong the Xantia is a nice car. The C5 is just the next step in the Citroen Mondeo line.

Steve.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 12 May 2010, 11:03

The 110HDi is the most reliable of the C5 ranges in my opinion. Its the only model without a FAP (well 90bhp too) filter, which is one of the main reasons i like it. They do have Dual Mass Flywheels, however should it go there is a solid flywheel kit available. Some say its not a good idea to replace a DMF with a solid unit, however one of our C5s has had a solid flywheel for more miles than its original DMF and it works perfectly, i asume since the Xantia 110 doesnt have one (i dont think?) the C5 110 is fine without one too.

The 2.2 S2 seems to have the most problems out of the two, mainly warnings about thew FAP filter 'antipollution' warnings etc. Its not usually a huge and csotly problem but its inconvenient and why i didnt want a 2.2. After all, if you think the 110 is a little slow (I find they vary a lot in performance for some reason) a remap to the ECU can achieve over and above the performance of a 2.2 but with the reliability and economy of the 2.0HDI.

Yes C5s do have more ECUs a BSI and comms2000 unit. Which you would hope never went wrong. Ive heard of very few people having BSi problems, comms2000 units are easily replaced. Suspension is more simple than on the Xantias and Xms too. Very few problems do occur on C5 suspensions and the spheres last and last and last.

Reliability of the 2.0HDi is really very good indeed, look at how many cars use this engine, you often see extremely high mileage cars with this engine for sale and seemingly going well.

I know people mock the HDis for their complexity and reliability, but when you look around at other modern engines they are among the very best for reliability. DCi renaults have all kinds of problems, the 1.9s are always going wrong usually needing new engines, turbos, gearboxes. The Vauxhall 1.9s are horrible units made by Fiat, whch also means Saabs are no good either. Earlier Ford deisels (TDCi before they went PSA) have big problems with injectors and DMF failures. Ford now use PSA Peugeot Citroen diesels which must say something. Infact a fair few cars now use engines found in Citroens first, even some Suzukis (grand vitara) use the 2.0HDi engine. Minis have the 1.6HDi, Ford uses the 1.4HDi, 1.6HDi & 2.0HDi 16v 138. The 1.6HDi is also in Volvos and the bigger diesels developend with PSA are in Jags and Landrovers. HDis are among the best for reliability, yes they might not be quite as bullet proof as the older 1.9TDs but they do offer more pace, increased performance and lower emissions. So i cant see what the problem is with HDis.

Yes ok they can have injector problems and DMF failures, but they are not as common as other makes. Go onto the mondeo forums and every other member has a TDCi which is eating through injectors. I often find HDis injectors depend on the fuel used. Cheaper fuels (supermarkets, lower range like imperial etc) lack some lubricating factors that modern high pressure diesels need. Thats what ive gathered from what ive read in the past, but thats a whole new topic and id rather not go there. Needless to say i only ever run my cars on BP or Shell.

We have had 4 cars with 2.0HDi 8vs and one with 2.0HDi 16v 138bhp. All have been fantastic engines and without any problems.

Just before i bought my first C5, I was in Richmond in Yorkshire, most of the Taxis they have there are C5s. As i was walking past the taxi rank i stopped and talked to one of the drivers in a C5, he said he owns 7 C5s which he operates as Taxis. I was asking about the reliability of them, he said he very rarely does get any problems, mainly drop links (some extremely bad roads round there, cobbles on the main street too so no wonder) and they get through front tryes quite quick. He had just put one off the road at 350K miles (2.0HDi 110) due to the interior being a bit scruffy, but he said it was still going well. He also said three of the others he has are around 200-300K miles. But didnt report any big failings with them.

My first C5, 2.0HDi 110 SX Hatch, i bought with 108K miles from a member on here, its an excellent car, currently on 122K miles and driving like a 50K mile car, if you didnt look at the mileage, just going by its unmarked body and interior it looks like an extremely low mileage car. I took this down to the south of france last year and it was a joy, ultimate comfort, refinement and economy. I had the climate control set to 16, cruise control set to 82mph, arm rest down and wafted all the way back to the ferry port. I wouldnt not have wanted to be in anything else, it was superb.

We have also had a 52 plate 2.0HDi 110 Estate SX, bought with 105K miles and sold with 110K miles it was a very good car, not quite as tidy as the above hatch but not bad and was a reliable car.

My current 04reg 2.0HDi 110 VTR has 71K miles, bought it with 67K miles around 5 months ago. Ive had problems with this one but im getting through them. Had to replace the comms2000 unit and had some brake broblems, suspension leak and pump stopped working. However that was sorted quite easily and cheaply - it wasnt the cars fault though, someone before i had the car had brimmed the suspension tank with LHM, it should have LDS, it mixed with the LDS fluid and started to foam causing the leak i had. Luckily it did as i wouldnt have known otherwise and would have driven it until the pump was runined. A flush through of the suspension system, new LDS and bleeding the system by a local specialist soon had it fixed. Saying that the engine is brilliantly reliable, its the quickest and quietest 2.0HDi ive driven.

Im a little bored with having to do things with this one, but no matter how hard i look for somehting else and try and like other cars i cant find anything which would suit me and what i want my car to do more than a C5.

Overall they are very reliable, very economical, spaciaous and safe cars.

Which does rather lead me onto why i have a C5 and not an Xm or Xantia. I do love Xms and Xantias, fantastic cars and id like a Xantia someday. However i chose the C5 on the strength of its safety credentials, which when im looking for a car is always something i look into. Especially with ever bigger, heavier cars on the roads its reasuring to know that my car will do its best should a crash happen. Not that you plan for a crash but you never know.

C5s are a 4 star car on the euron cap testing and the facelifted C5 (not the germanic one) is a 5 star. The facelift has a softer front plastics (pedestrian safety improved) and a knee airbag for the driver. If you look at the videos of crash testing C5 on youtube they are pretty amasing, the roof and a pillar stays untouched.

I wouldnt recommend any Xantia owners to look at its rating or pictures but the C5 is well worth a look. It has 8 airbags and ABS with EBD as standard. Facelifted cars have traction control too.

Saying that one member on here recently had their Xantia written off, looked to have stood up very well to the impact. As did an Xm too. Mind with an Xm the front is so long and far away you probably wouldnt notice an accident

Ive only ever driven one Xantia, and that was a very short blast in a Activa, so i cant compare living with a Xantia to living with a C5.

Among with everything else, C5s are fantastic value for money, they are an awful lot of car for little money.

Do try and get a well looked after example if you are getting one, they are cheap and dont be put off but higher mileages, but make sure its a good car and check every electric on the car.

I do sometimes worry if i have a fault with mine that it could be somehting big like a ECU problems or what ever, but thats the nature of modern cars now. The only thing different with the C5 is its suspension, which usually proves to be very reliable anyway. Ive had a couple of leaks but they were very cheap to put right and didnt stop me using the car.

Sorry for the long post, but i hope that helps with your C5 questions. Im a pretty big fan of them as you can tell. We wouldnt have 3 if they were rubbish

Xantidote · Post by **Xantidote** » 12 May 2010, 16:28

Thanks guys, for all your information & comments.

I like my S1 1.9TD Xantia as it's reliable, and relatively simple to maintain, with no multiplex wiring, ecus, or DMF. However, it would be nice to have a little more power, hence my query regarding the 110 HDI engine. I guess when it does come to a replacement car, I'll be fairly open minded as to a Xantia or C5, being mainly concerned that the vehicle is in good condition, and has been well cared for.

Cheers - Martin

steelcityuk · Post by **steelcityuk** » 12 May 2010, 20:56

Well if you like the Xantia and want more power try a 2.1 TD. A bunch of us on the XM forum think they're the pinnacle of non direct injection diesels. The extra valves and slighty larger displacement seem to improve the economy and even in standard trim pull very well I think - that's not bad considering I've had a remapped 2.0HDi C5 and a 2.5TD XM. Currently I'm rebuilding the engine in the 2.1TD XM and it's all straight forward stuff if a little awkward next to the bulkhead.

Steve.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 12 May 2010, 22:31

The 2.1TD engine is a great one, i agree. Performance in the 2.1TD Xm estate is very similar to a 2.0HDi 110 C5, however the power delivery is in a shorter rev band than the HDi. Economy is almost as good too.

Xantidote · Post by **Xantidote** » 13 May 2010, 09:58

Hmmmmm - a 2.1TD, interesting thought.

Tend to have discounted it, on the basis of it's (is it an Epic?) injection pump. Also heard that it's difficult doing a clutch change. Nevertheless, yet another option

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 13 May 2010, 10:03

Citroenmad wrote: however one of our C5s has had a solid flywheel for more miles than its original DMF and it works perfectly, i asume since the Xantia 110 doesnt have one (i dont think?) the C5 110 is fine without one too.

Correct! The xantia does NOT have DMF's but have an awfully CRAP Pull clutch worse then the TD, and the release bearings are a common failure!

Paul

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 13 May 2010, 10:06

Xantidote wrote:Hmmmmm - a 2.1TD, interesting thought.

Tend to have discounted it, on the basis of it's (is it an Epic?) injection pump. Also heard that it's difficult doing a clutch change. Nevertheless, yet another option

Ah Epic... Well, when the engine was First fitted to the XM as far back as 1991, they had Mechanical Lucas.. which is also Rubbish.. however from around 1993 they switched to Mechanical Bosch.. then theres no reason to junk the Epic and fit a 1.9 XUD Bosch setup, and set it up correctly, works fine, apparently its been done a few times...

Paul