Head Gasket Fluid

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 12 May 2010, 13:07

It does sound as though the timing isnt set right. Has that been checked?

evilally · Post by **evilally** » 12 May 2010, 13:31

I'm not familiar with the ZX, but they might have had the engine off of one or more of it's mounts to get access to the belt. This might have required the exhaust manifold to be disconnected from the exhaust, and possibly it hasn't been refitted correctly. The manifold itself should not have been disturbed.

I wouldn't run the car with a cam belt cover missing

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 12 May 2010, 14:50

I've decided to do everything myself from now on. I'm going to check the timing when I get a chance. Tomorrow hopefully. I'll order a new lower cambelt cover from the main dealer by mail order if I can (to avoid having to use the car with the cover missing). He must have thrown the old cover away I think, as he's making up excuses why he can't refit it. It's too time consuming to get the three covers to fit together properly. That's why they don't refit them. The cover was broken anyway but it was present.

I expect I might find that the belt is one tooth out. Is it possible to just lift the belt away from the toothed wheel and move the wheel along one tooth, without messing about with the tension adjuster? How do I know if the tension is correct?

I think he's improved the performance by adjusting the diesel pump timing. However if the cambelt is one tooth out then the diesel pump timing will be adjusted based on an incorrect cambelt fit. I suppose the diesel pump timing is not critical to the safety of the engine. It's just pumping diesel and it's not going to bend any valves by being out. The cambelt fitting is the only thing that's critical to the safety of the engine isn't it? I hate to think what else he might have been adjusting to improve the performance of the engine.

Paul

h2ocooler · Post by **h2ocooler** » 12 May 2010, 15:15

If the injection timing is out too far it could cause problems, when the diesel is injected into the cylinder that is when the power is produced to drive the piston down the bore (power stroke) if it is too early then there is the potential to try and push it down too early (before the crank has passed top dead centre point) there by putting extra load on the crank, piston, big and small end bearings (trying to turn it backwards)

Not too sure in the ZX but on the Xantia I had the injection timing was set by using a dial guage into a port on the diesel pump, it can be done roughly by guess work but should be done accordint to the book to make the engine run correctly.

You will have to remove the tension from the belt to alter the pully, if you don't you can put too much stress on the belt and weaken it, again there are tools to use to lock the crank, cam and pump in the right places when re-fitting the belt.

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 12 May 2010, 16:14

I asked them to replace the water housing at the back of the engine, which was dripping coolant. It's round the corner from the water pump, on the offside of the engine bay, about six inches above the offside inner driveshaft gaiter metal can. It's a manifold connector which takes up to four coolant hoses and connects them to the engine block.

It is very difficult to get to which is why I asked the garage to do the job rather than doing it myself. I'm wondering whether they had to jack the engine up, or lower the engine, or maybe disconnect the exhaust manifold to get to it. I suppose it's possible that they might have taken the engine out.

When I first got the car back I went for a test drive and noticed that the clutch adjustment was completely different to the way it was previously. The engine performance was now very poor. The gears seemed to be worse than before with the gears crashing a bit in first and second. I went straight back to the garage and asked them if they'd adjusted the clutch and they said no. This denial then got me very suspicious that they had swapped my good engine for a bad one, and swapped my good gearbox for a gearbox with synchromesh problems. I had words with the owner of the garage and told him that I wasn't happy and that I expected the car to be put back in exactly the same state as it was when I brought it in. The next day the gearbox still seemed to be crashing in first and second but after a bit more complaining it's now ok.

I've been inspecting the engine and gearbox looking for telltale signs that they're not mine. I can't see anything incriminating. Most things look familiar. I'm now thinking that the crashing gears may have been due to bad clutch adjustment and a raised idling speed due to the bad engine performance. One of the mechanics did look worried when I asked him why he'd adjusted the clutch though. Maybe he swapped the gearbox out and then decided to put it back in when I started asking questions.

What got me suspicious was when they denied adjusting the clutch even though it was obvious that the clutch was different. I now think that all the mechanics in the garage automatically deny everything. This means they can get away with less rework. Whatever problem the customer is asking about, the mechanics say they don't know anything about it, or they weren't working in that area. I suppose it's a valid business strategy but it doesn't work with me because I just dig deeper until I work out what's going on.

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 12 May 2010, 17:08

It's horrible knowing you've been conned, even if only in words, but to find evidence of a possible engine swap is a scarey thought! Have you checked everything that would have to be undone for an engine swap? Hopefully you'll find proof they haven't been disturbed - fingers crossed.

Yes, there is an EGR but I suspect the exhaust is coming from the header/downpipe gasket as they most likely dropped or raised the engine too far when doing the head gasket, stressing the flexible joint enough to cause a leak. Citroen sell a repair kit, was £15 a couple of years ago so not an expensive fix.

I do think you're having the wool pulled on the water pump and lower cambelt cover as they can be awkward enough to frustrate a DIY'er like me. Though my first time with them had me stumped by the top cover - until Jim came along and jacked the engine up another inch or so

Yes, insert the flywheel bolt and see if you can insert the cam and pump pulley bolts - it'll be obvious if the timing is out and it does sound like it is to me.

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 12 May 2010, 18:07

I used to have one of those exhaust repair kits. It may have been for a 1.6 Petrol Pug 405 though. I'll have a hunt around for it. Might be the same.

They never changed the head gasket as it was ok but I think they probably raised the engine to get to the water housing.

I wonder if the cambelt was one notch out when they first did it, resulting in the very bad performance to start with. Then maybe they improved it by moving it a notch, and now the remaining problems are due to leaking inlet and exhaust gaskets.

I've got a lower cambelt cover on the way by post. Only 10 quid new.

Paul

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 12 May 2010, 18:13

Looks like gsfcarparts sell the exhaust fitting kits:-

286PC0020 EXHAUST FITTING KIT ZX 1.9D FRONT (NOT TD) 12.50

h2ocooler · Post by **h2ocooler** » 12 May 2010, 19:54

You should be able to check the engine number on the registration document and the block match, but without a known history of the car it may have been changed already in its life and not registered, still its worth a look see.
I doubt if they would swap engine and/or gearbox as you would notice the difference anyway, they would know it is hard to get away with (although it has been known with hire cars)
Gear wise it sounds like adjustment on the clutch, did it bite lower that it did, if so then the clutch was dragging causing the gears to crunch.

As MikeT said, put a bolt into the hole in the engine block and turn the engine by spanner (ignition OFF) until the bolt goes into the hole in the flywheel, that locks the flywheel at TDC then try the bolts for the cam and pump alignment, Im guessing that either the cam or pump is a tooth out, re-align it then reset the injection timing.

Its a pain that the exhaust is leaking, it might be that they removed the manifold to gain access to the back of the engine, if you can get the car on ramps you may be able to see the leak with a helper revving the engine for you (with the brakes ON)
Where are you located? there may be a menber near that could help a bit.
Rob

addo · Post by **addo** » 12 May 2010, 22:41

If they're as bad as we're thinking, an engine swap without failure is well out of the garage's abilities. Besides, you can check the numbers as another person has pointed out.

I think this illustrates a good reason to pay garages on C/C - you can reverse the transaction!

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 13 May 2010, 19:28

I've checked the engine number with the reg documents and it matches. The car has only had two owners, my brother and myself and it's the original engine. The plate with the engine number on came off in my hand when I touched it. I think it's just a corroded rivet and I've had that happen before. I don't think they've changed the engine but I was wondering if anybody knew of any less obvious markings on engines and gearboxes that I could check. Maybe a serial number or date code somewhere. I remember that some cars (Jaguar?) used to have an odometer somewhere on the gearbox so you could check that the mileage was accurate.

Yes, the clutch did bite lower than it used to and that is why the gears were crashing. They adjusted it again for me.

The car started first time today but I think it's because it's a warm day. When I took the car back to the garage they improved the performance quite a bit. They said that they adjusted the timing of the diesel pump. I reckon that the cambelt was one tooth out and they just moved it. So it's probably ok now but I will check the timing when my new timing cover comes in the post. I'm scared to drive the car without the lower cambelt cover on, so I'll do the cover first and then look at the exhaust.

The exhaust only seems to leak when it's cold and I can see it ok without revving the engine. Once the cambelt cover is done I'll put the car on ramps and have a look where the smoke is coming from.

The Haynes manual says that you're supposed to support the exhaust manifold once disconnected from the engine. The garage probably wouldn't have done that. So it may be that the weight of the manifold has done something to the sprung connector further down. The other possibility is that the garage didn't disconnect the exhaust manifold and just jacked up the engine with the exhaust still connected. This might have pulled the sprung connector apart. I just hope there's nothing bent.

How does the sprung exhaust connector work? I assume there's no gasket. Is it just two tubes sliding against each other? What makes the seal?

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 13 May 2010, 19:48

the_weaver wrote:IThe other possibility is that the garage didn't disconnect the exhaust manifold and just jacked up the engine with the exhaust still connected. This might have pulled the sprung connector apart. I just hope there's nothing bent.

How does the sprung exhaust connector work? I assume there's no gasket. Is it just two tubes sliding against each other? What makes the seal?

That's my theory, they jacked or lowered the engine too far. The coupling is like a knuckle ball joint only hollow. It allows movement in any direction as the engine rocks slightly back and forth in use. It's a large gasket made from what's best described as looking like a compressed brillo pad. The joint is held by long spring-loaded bolts, again designed to allow limited movement. It might re-seal by tightening the bolts - worth a try.

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 13 May 2010, 20:29

Mike

I'll have a go at tightening the bolts if I can see that's where the leak is from. The fact that it leaks when cold and doesn't leak when hot suggests that the heat expanding the metal is closing the leak, so tightening might work.

Paul

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 13 May 2010, 20:35

I just remembered something an exhaust fitter once told me. He said that the Citroen/Peugeot exhausts are made from thicker metal than the after-market replacements. The exhaust fitters buy the sprung fixing kits from Citroen but to use them with the thinner exhausts they have to add washers. So maybe I can fix the leak by adding a couple of washers on the springs.

Paul

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 15 May 2010, 00:00

I put the car on ramps today. I could see the exhaust smoke but I haven't worked out where it's coming from yet. I have to keep stopping to allow the engine to cool down as the smoke is only there when the engine is cold.

It looks like the exhaust manifold nuts have not been disturbed. I can see rust on the threads. The sprung coupling looks ok from the outside, not bent or anything. The bolts look like they have not been disturbed.

There's a metal pot on the exhaust system/manifold area. It might be a sound absorber? It looks like a double-sized rusty metal oil filter. It's right next to the water housing that the garage changed and I think the garage may have removed this to get access to the water housing. This might be the source of the leak. Does anybody know how it comes off? Unscrewing it like an oil filter would be easy but I bet it's not that simple. Has it got a gasket?

The exhaust smoke is only there when the engine/exhaust is cold. The engine performance is bad when the engine/exhaust is cold and ok when the engine/exhaust is warm. I think these two things may be related. I suppose it's possible that the smoke is in fact coming from the recycling circuit through a gauze filter as the garage told me. Does anybody know where the gauze filter is located?

I haven't checked the timing yet. I'm still waiting for the bolts to come in the post.

One thing I noticed when under the car is that I can see the teeth on the outside edge of the flywheel at the rear of the engine, near the driveshaft. Does this mean a cover has been left off? There is a cover for the front/lower part of the flywheel. I'm wondering if there's supposed to be a rear cover.

Paul