Rough Idle on Xantia 1.9TD.

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 49531
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
Location: Paggers
My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
x 6160
Contact:

Post by CitroJim »

MikeT wrote: I can't say for certain but expect the TPS is used to calculate timing, along with other inputs.
Yes it does exactly that Mike. It's called the load pot and is used to help the ECU determine the load imposed on the engine by working out how far the throttle is open and engine RPM. Wide throttle plus low RPM indicates heavily loaded engine. It uses this data to then select an optimum timing value from the load maps.

It is unlikely to cause rough running.
MikeT wrote: Does your engine have a lift sensor on the third injector??
It should have!!!

If duff, and they're not the most reliable of things, they will cause rough idle.

A doddle to test. Disconnect it with the engine ruining and if there is adetectable change in engine note, the sensor is good. If there is absolutely no change then it's suspect.

It can be tested roughly with an ohmmeter; it shoud read in the region of 100 ohms.
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
User avatar
KennyW
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 2499
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 21:22
Location: Letham, Fife
My Cars: Current Citroen's
C5 x7 2010
SWMBO C3 2012
Previous Citroen's
Xantia 2.0 90hp estate
Xantia 1.9 TD estate
x 132

Post by KennyW »

Hi All,

Thanks for all the input, I went and spoke to a mechanic who loves Xantias ( a very rear breed)and he said it requires the belt to be out by half a tooth to cause problems :cry: and i thought off with timing belt again.

Since all the problems were at idle Ithought I would check one more thing and hey presto it started to run smoothly with no engine shake, (rattle and roll) 8-)

This is what I did, The fast idle is lever with a spring which is run of the camshaft via the vacumn system.

Since the engine was at running temp it should be on idle but it was on fast idle and pressing the lever resulted in smooth idling and NO rock and roll.

Okay, I now know where the problem is, question is what is causing this.

The cable on the fast idle is showing wear and tear as a result of the on/off.

Or is it the idle electro valve.

It may be worth changing both as the cost is not great.

Kenny
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 49531
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
Location: Paggers
My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
x 6160
Contact:

Post by CitroJim »

Excellent news Kenny!!!

The idle problem is often the electovalve itself. I believe you can swap it for the EGR electrovale next-door and see if that sorts it.

In any case, check the vacuum pump is working by feeling for vacuum on the tip of your finger...

I cannot recall if the fast idle is with vacuum on or off now. Mike, can you confirm?
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
MikeT
Posts: 4809
Joined: 11 Jun 2007, 16:17
Location: Christchurch, Dorset. UK
My Cars: 2005 C5restyle 1.6HDI 16v 110hp VTR Estate
2008 C5 X7 1.6HDI VTR+ Saloon
x 231

Post by MikeT »

Yes, fast idle is without any interference - the default - so it is on until something pulls the lever back. The solenoid is given that task by supplying vacuum to diaphragm with bowden cable. I know the solenoids often fail but they're electrical connectors are keyed differently so cannot just be swapped unfortunately. Perhaps a bit of filing would allow it?

Both my Xantia's came with failed solenoids and I just lived with the fast idle as it wasn't a problem IMO.

My engine idles just under 1000rpm and should it get on my nerves, I can reset it, just like the normal idle can be reset. The Haynes gives details of how to do this - a screw stop adjustment on the back of the pump.

I am surprised to learn the fast idle is the cause of engine shake though. What was it idling at?
Peter.N.
Moderating Team
Posts: 11563
Joined: 02 Apr 2005, 16:11
Location: Charmouth,Dorset
My Cars: Currently:

C5 X7 VTR + Satnav Hdi estate Silver
C5 X7 VTR + Hdi Estate 2008 Red

In the past: 3, CX td Safaris and about 7, XM td estates. Lovely cars.
x 1199

Post by Peter.N. »

Sounds as though there is an iregularity at certain speeds, and it just happened to be in that zone. Use to get that with the old Perkins 4/108 engines but you could remove the injector tops and adjust the individual pressures - with the engine running :shock: screw and lock nut like the old tappets.

Peter
User avatar
KennyW
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 2499
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 21:22
Location: Letham, Fife
My Cars: Current Citroen's
C5 x7 2010
SWMBO C3 2012
Previous Citroen's
Xantia 2.0 90hp estate
Xantia 1.9 TD estate
x 132

Post by KennyW »

Hi All,

I think this only part of the problem as on the old pump the spring had broken and it was running fine with the fast idle, also the car is not quite as reponsive as it should be.

I will check the needle sensor at no 3 as suggested to see what happens.

I think we are getting there :wink:

Kenny
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
User avatar
falling-out-with-my-car
Posts: 1928
Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 15:26
Location: Northamptonshire
My Cars: Citroen C5 Aircross 8 speed Automatic, Flair Model with far to many toys and nice comfy armchair like leather seats. ha ha Ive just had a conversation with the car. setting everything up verbally
x 24

Post by falling-out-with-my-car »

Kenny,

this is uncanny we both have the same car and same year I wonder if this was a popular problem for 98 estate 1.9 TD engines with bosch pumps.

after recently having my cambelt renewed I returned to the person that did the job with a strange noise comming from the engine at idle almost as though th timing was slightly out, I have noticed a drop in performance of the car and a small loss of aceleration.

he listened to the noise which sounds like the the cambelt pulleys are about to jump off the side of the engine ( even thought they are new) a low deep rattling noise almost as though the timming isnt quite right.

this is worse when the engine is hot, I wonder if we have the same problem seeing as a cambelt change made similar problems occur.
the throttle seems to drop so low with a hot engine it almost sounds like it is struggling to keeo going, the rev counter reads about 850 rpm at this stage I seem to remember the revs being higher before the belt was changed.

regards Nigel.
Citroen Xantia S2 1.9 TD estate 189K soon to be broken for parts Jan 2017 headlamps & radiator fan assembly already spoken for & A 1987 Citroen 2CV6 special just for fun.
New addition Citroen C5 2.0 HDi Exclusive Hatch purchased 09/12/2016 with 83K on the clock.
User avatar
KennyW
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 2499
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 21:22
Location: Letham, Fife
My Cars: Current Citroen's
C5 x7 2010
SWMBO C3 2012
Previous Citroen's
Xantia 2.0 90hp estate
Xantia 1.9 TD estate
x 132

Post by KennyW »

Hi Nigel,

Thanks for the reply curious that we have a very simialr problem :?

But prior to all my problems the engine was running fine. It all started with the ignition barrel :!: and spiralled from there.

Kenny
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
User avatar
falling-out-with-my-car
Posts: 1928
Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 15:26
Location: Northamptonshire
My Cars: Citroen C5 Aircross 8 speed Automatic, Flair Model with far to many toys and nice comfy armchair like leather seats. ha ha Ive just had a conversation with the car. setting everything up verbally
x 24

Post by falling-out-with-my-car »

Kenny ,

before my cambelt change the engine was running sweet mate even at idle.

I think maybe its something to do with running on veg in my case maybe the timing wants advancing slightly.

good luck

Nigel.
Citroen Xantia S2 1.9 TD estate 189K soon to be broken for parts Jan 2017 headlamps & radiator fan assembly already spoken for & A 1987 Citroen 2CV6 special just for fun.
New addition Citroen C5 2.0 HDi Exclusive Hatch purchased 09/12/2016 with 83K on the clock.
User avatar
KennyW
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 2499
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 21:22
Location: Letham, Fife
My Cars: Current Citroen's
C5 x7 2010
SWMBO C3 2012
Previous Citroen's
Xantia 2.0 90hp estate
Xantia 1.9 TD estate
x 132

Post by KennyW »

Hi All,

I have just checked the needle sensor on injector 3 and when I pull the plug apart at the connector there is no change in the engine sound or running :) .

This may be my problem resulting in the poor running.

I presume the sensor can be changed on its own or is it a new injector plus sensor.

Kenny
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
User avatar
Xaccers
Posts: 7654
Joined: 07 Feb 2007, 23:46
Location: Milling around Milton Keynes
My Cars:
x 184

Post by Xaccers »

99% certain it's injector swap.
Does you tacho fail/engine idle change when you disconnect the tdc sensor?

Jenny had the same problem, so the ecu couldn't adjust the pump timing. Sometimes she'd start fine, other times she'd sound like a bag of nails.
Replaced the injector and all is well.
1.9TD+ SX Xantia Estate (Cassy) running on 100% veg
1.9TD SX Xantia Hatchback (Jenny) running on 100% veg for sale
Laguna II 2.0dCi Privilege (Monty)

DIY sphere tool
MikeT
Posts: 4809
Joined: 11 Jun 2007, 16:17
Location: Christchurch, Dorset. UK
My Cars: 2005 C5restyle 1.6HDI 16v 110hp VTR Estate
2008 C5 X7 1.6HDI VTR+ Saloon
x 231

Post by MikeT »

Kenny, before shelling out on replacement parts, you might want to check the wiring itself?
Xac wrote:Replaced the injector and all is well.
Who did you buy from and how much? I once looked at GSF prices and it was about £120?
Last edited by MikeT on 02 May 2010, 17:25, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
KennyW
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 2499
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 21:22
Location: Letham, Fife
My Cars: Current Citroen's
C5 x7 2010
SWMBO C3 2012
Previous Citroen's
Xantia 2.0 90hp estate
Xantia 1.9 TD estate
x 132

Post by KennyW »

Hi Mike and all,

They are the original injectors never been touch since I've had the car and I have the previous service history as well.

First I am going to organise a lexia check to see what it finds then consider my options.

I will also check the wiring since a lot of the problems have been wiring issues.

Kenny
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
User avatar
JamesQB
Posts: 375
Joined: 13 Aug 2003, 18:01
Location: North Wales, United Kingdom
My Cars: Citroen Xantia 1.8 - I miss this car a lot.
x 5

Post by JamesQB »

Will a Lexia 3 give information on whether or not that lift sensor is working? And does it allow for setting the TPS position correctly?

I ask as my parents' 98 Xantia 1.9TD has similar trouble and is stuck on fast idle despite new solenoid. For some reason ECU isn't activating solenoid to cut the fast idle. Idles at just over 1000rpm and has that deep rattling noise someone else mentioned.
Honda Civic 2.2 CDTi 2006
Peugeot 407 2.0 HDi 2007
MikeT
Posts: 4809
Joined: 11 Jun 2007, 16:17
Location: Christchurch, Dorset. UK
My Cars: 2005 C5restyle 1.6HDI 16v 110hp VTR Estate
2008 C5 X7 1.6HDI VTR+ Saloon
x 231

Post by MikeT »

JamesQB wrote:Will a Lexia 3 give information on whether or not that lift sensor is working? And does it allow for setting the TPS position correctly?

I ask as my parents' 98 Xantia 1.9TD has similar trouble and is stuck on fast idle despite new solenoid. For some reason ECU isn't activating solenoid to cut the fast idle. Idles at just over 1000rpm and has that deep rattling noise someone else mentioned.
Hi James, yes the Lexia will give some information on the timing and the lift sensor as well as the TPS output voltage - which I suspect you can set the TPS to if you know the spec.
Post Reply