Lucas Epic AGAIN!! 2.1 TD Xantia

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Post Reply
Jonesy
Posts: 74
Joined: 23 Nov 2002, 21:17
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars:

Lucas Epic AGAIN!! 2.1 TD Xantia

Post by Jonesy »

Sorry, it's me again.
Some of you may recall my running problems with my 2.1 TD Xantia back last June, which bizarrely seemed to be fixed with a new fuel filter and leak offs, although I never found any kind of air leak and still can't.
Anyway, It has run for a further 10,000 miles and rarely given a hiccup until the last couple of weeks and it's started hanging on to the revs on occasion. Because it is often disconcerting to drive like it, unfortunately we have bought another car now as my partner was getting worried driving it, bless her!
Just to explain again without boring people, it starts and stops perfectly, even in minus 10 degrees C that we had in January it was starting instantly and without missing a beat, which I was very impressed with.
It does not run on when you stop the engine and it does NOT run erratically until the engine is warm/hot. Is this a clue maybe. I know that Jim was convinced that it was an air leak and I have the greatest respect for him but why did it run for a further 10,000 miles absolutely fine?
Any further suggestions would be greatly appreciated, I really don't want this to beat me and once the car is out of MOT in May, I might well remove the pump and dismantle it myself as I now have nothing really to lose.
Does anyone know if parts are still available from Lucas for the Epic pumps?
Many Thanks.
Peter.N.
Moderating Team
Posts: 11563
Joined: 02 Apr 2005, 16:11
Location: Charmouth,Dorset
My Cars: Currently:

C5 X7 VTR + Satnav Hdi estate Silver
C5 X7 VTR + Hdi Estate 2008 Red

In the past: 3, CX td Safaris and about 7, XM td estates. Lovely cars.
x 1199

Post by Peter.N. »

If the pump is faulty I would replace it with a mechanical on from an XM - end of problem
colinxm
Posts: 79
Joined: 12 Apr 2009, 19:33
Location: Jørpeland Norway
My Cars:

Post by colinxm »

I'm with Peter on this one, I replaced my faulty epic with a bosch mechanical pump a while ago - it's not too big a job and it's nice to be able to tweak the pump for a gain in performance without expensive "chipping" :D

Good luck Colin.P
1995 Cit XM 2,1 TD Silver Estate
2004 Pug 307 SW
1989 Pug 205 Cabriolet
1998 Ford Puma
1979 Triumph TR7
siraff
Posts: 45
Joined: 26 Oct 2009, 13:18
Location:
My Cars:

Post by siraff »

I was trying to get hold of parts for an epic last year and got told that they would only sell me a complete pump. Even on an exchange basis it was about £800 from what I remember. Obviously I waited until a 2nd hand one came up.
What's involved in swapping for mechanical then?
User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 49531
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
Location: Paggers
My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
x 6160
Contact:

Post by CitroJim »

Hi Jonesy :D

First off, have a full Lexia check run on the pump to determine what is going on and to determine that all is working as it should.

About the only thing that can fail in the EPIC is the ESOS valves. These are the electrovalves that control stop, throttle and timing.

They fail because their viton tips wear and these are replaceable.

The EPIC is an ever so easy pump to pull to bits and the ESOS valves can be done on a DIY basis if the bits are available. I'm sure they are.. Did you try a mob like Merlin Diesel Siraff?

There's a good article on doing a mechanical conversion here.
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
hobblerian
Posts: 41
Joined: 11 Apr 2009, 22:52
Location:
My Cars:

Post by hobblerian »

I had a similar problem with the Epic pump on my 2.1 XM, it would rev erratically on start up sometimes and would also hang onto the revs when lifting off throttle. his was cured by changing the green topped temperature sensor which is situated on the righthand side of the head as you look from the front of the car. Might not be related to your problem but the sensor is only about £15 from main dealer, might be worth a try.
Previous 90H S1 XM 2.1td SD Manual
Current 97P S2 XM 2.1td VSX Manual
User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 49531
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
Location: Paggers
My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
x 6160
Contact:

Post by CitroJim »

hobblerian wrote:his was cured by changing the green topped temperature sensor
That's the engine ECU coolant temperature sensor. Something a Lexia session will discover very quickly...

If it is duff, it will fool the ECU into believing the engine is permanently cold.
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Jonesy
Posts: 74
Joined: 23 Nov 2002, 21:17
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars:

Post by Jonesy »

I seem to drawing a bit of a blank with getting a couple of local independents to want to do any diagnostic checks on the car, I don't think they can be bothered as it's too old and too much hassle for them.
They have both said it will be the pump and all you can do it get it rebuilt.
I have now taken the car off the road and I'm determined to get to the bottom of the problem, and may well strip the pump and see if I can detect any wear.
Does anyone know where I can get diagrams of the Lucas Epic pump so that I know what I'm tackling, I'm quite happy to buy these if anything is available.
I have seen a mechanical Bosch XM pump on ebay but it does not come with pipes which presumably I would need? Can the original injectors be used or not?
User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 49531
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
Location: Paggers
My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
x 6160
Contact:

Post by CitroJim »

Jonesy, where are you? I'm sure if there is a Lexiated member near you they'll be happy to run a set of diagnostics.

I can help with an EPIC strip. I have a duff pump here I've stripped once but neglected to take many photos.

They are actually very easy to strip apart; easier in fact than the Bosch or Lucas DPC.

Here are a couple of shots:

ESOS valves:

Image

Distributor head:

Image

I have nothing "official" on them but they're actually so simple, there is no need.

Any help I can offer...
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Jonesy
Posts: 74
Joined: 23 Nov 2002, 21:17
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars:

Post by Jonesy »

Jim,

Thanks very much for the offer, I may well take you up on it.
I've very kindly been offered a diagnostic check by a member of the forum and they are not a million miles away from me, I'm based in Oxfordshire.
I have also been given details where I can get a seal kit from, which I'm sure I would do even if stripping the pump reveals nothing.
One puzzling question is that if the pump is that simple, theoretically it should be fairly reliable, or is it the fact that it has electro mechanical parts that makes it unreliable.
I still say that when running well the 2.1 lump would pretty much match the fuel consumption of some of these spoilt and over complex common rail engines of today, although clearly not have the power and torque.
Very many thanks for all your help, I'll keep everyone posted as to where I get.
Jonesy
Posts: 74
Joined: 23 Nov 2002, 21:17
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars:

Post by Jonesy »

I have a bit of an update which I'm hoping may be either the cause of the troubles or part of the trouble and mainly due to forum member hobblerian.
I have ordered a new Coolant Temperature Sensor from Eurocarparts, but decided to remove the old one and test it on a DMM.
I trawled the net for information on testing the resistance at differing temperatures and on measuring mine it all appeared fine until I began to measure at between 80-90 degrees C when it reads approx. 330-340 ohms and then all of a sudden will go from open circuit to 2500-3000 ohms and then back again to the correct value. I thought that maybe I did not have the probes on the terminal correctly so have tried a further 4 times and it basically does exactly the same thing each and every time.
So, I can only assume that the reason the car does not play up in colder weather is that it is on the cusp of the sensor working correctly or not and as the weather warms up, it must tip it over the edge and fail every so often. The only concern to me is whether the CTS can effect the over-revving to the extent that it has been??
MikeT
Posts: 4809
Joined: 11 Jun 2007, 16:17
Location: Christchurch, Dorset. UK
My Cars: 2005 C5restyle 1.6HDI 16v 110hp VTR Estate
2008 C5 X7 1.6HDI VTR+ Saloon
x 231

Post by MikeT »

Jonesy wrote:....on measuring mine it all appeared fine until I began to measure at between 80-90 degrees C when it reads approx. 330-340 ohms and then all of a sudden will go from open circuit to 2500-3000 ohms and then back again to the correct value.
That is the same behaviour I'm seeing with my ECT sensor on my Xantia 1.9TD.
User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 49531
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
Location: Paggers
My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
x 6160
Contact:

Post by CitroJim »

That CTS is a bit knacked then Jonesey..

:wink:

Hope it fixes the problem...
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Jonesy
Posts: 74
Joined: 23 Nov 2002, 21:17
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars:

Post by Jonesy »

Cheers Jim, lets hope so.
mark21td
Posts: 268
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 13:27
Location: Heathrow
My Cars:
x 1

Post by mark21td »

I was told by an ex Peugeot mechanic that after changing the coolent temp sensor you need to reset the ecu, you can do this by disconecting the battory overnight, if you don't then the ecu won't recanise the new sensor.
99 406 LX HDI 90 estate
99 C250TD sport estate
01 306 HDI 90 meridian estate
Brew my own biodiesel

http://www.shorewasteoil.xtreemhost.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Post Reply