C5 2.2 HDI Low Power and Sluggish

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Post Reply
KevMayer
Posts: 1051
Joined: 12 Sep 2003, 22:01
Location: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
My Cars:
x 2

C5 2.2 HDI Low Power and Sluggish

Post by KevMayer »

My C5 2.2 HDI has never been quick or econimical, but, now it is even worse.

I've been doing much more mileage lately travelling to London to work on a project for the Olympic Park.

The first problem was an eratic tickover which gradually got worse and the engine began to stall. I replaced the fuel filter and this cured the tickover problem.

Then, one day while travelling down the M1, in the snow and slush, the power dropped drastically and I could barely maintain 40 mph in 4th, needing to change down to 3rd a few times. I pulled off the motorway and drove to a petrol station. Lifted the bonnet to see if anything was obvious. Nothing found. Restarted and drove/limped to London.

I checked the air filter, the element is a K&N flat panel and was ok, but there was a lot of water in the air filter box.

Now, the C5 struggles to accelerate. I've rechecked the fuel filter and air filter and they're both ok.

I change the oil/oil filter regularly, and it's quite new right now. The oil level is good too.

There are no warning messages on the display or warning lights on the dash.

The turbo appears to be whistling, but, maybe not as much as it used to.

The C5 has done 125K miles.

Any ideas?
Cheers, Kev

02 plate C5 2.2 Hdi Exclusive SE (now 170k miles 03/21).

Used to have:- Xantia 1.9 TurboD SX. 1996 Blue & 1998 Silver Activa. + 1992 BX TZD Turbo.
User avatar
myglaren
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 25368
Joined: 02 Mar 2008, 13:30
Location: Washington
My Cars: Mazda 6
Ooops.
Previously:
2009 Honda Civic :(
C5, C5, Xantia, BX, GS, Visa.
R4, R11TXE, R14, R30TX
x 4889

Post by myglaren »

These are remarkably similar symptoms to the ones that boristhespie had with his first C5, that cleared on driving through a flood :shock:

I'd be pulling the EGR and associated bits out, plus the swirl valve and solenoid + pipework.

The MAF could also be a suspect here. Try spraying it with carburettor cleaner.

Are you anywhere near one of our Lexia owners that could read any fault codes to aid a diagnosis?
User avatar
mooseshaver
Posts: 886
Joined: 27 Apr 2006, 10:50
Location: Cumbria
My Cars:

Post by mooseshaver »

Didn't this C5 have an issue with water in the airboxes? I thought there was a recall that involved changing something, and drilling a hole in bottom of the airbox.
C5 III Tourer 2.0 HDi 163 Auto Exclusive
Gone cars.
C5 2.2 HDi Exclusive Estate auto 57. Awesome car. Sadly Could not be fixed by Citroen.
C5 1.6 HDi VTR Estate 56. Traded in.
C5 2.2 HDi SX Estate 02. Drowned in the floods of 09.
C3 1.4 HDi 92 SX 52.
Saxo 1.1 East Coast.
KevMayer
Posts: 1051
Joined: 12 Sep 2003, 22:01
Location: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
My Cars:
x 2

Post by KevMayer »

About 3 months ago I blanked of the EGR return to the inlet manifold to see if this made a difference.

Last week I removed the MAF and sprayed it with carb cleaner.

My swirl valves have been cable tied open for some time now (12 months or more).

Drilling a small drain hole in the bottom of the air box sounds like a usefull thing to do. At the moment though the airbox is dry since my recent checks.
Cheers, Kev

02 plate C5 2.2 Hdi Exclusive SE (now 170k miles 03/21).

Used to have:- Xantia 1.9 TurboD SX. 1996 Blue & 1998 Silver Activa. + 1992 BX TZD Turbo.
User avatar
Kowalski
Posts: 2557
Joined: 15 Oct 2003, 17:41
Location: North East, United Kingdom
My Cars: Ex 05 C5 2.0 HDI Exclusive 145k
Ex 97 Xantia 1.9TD SX 144k
Ex 94 Xantia Dimension 1.9TD 199k

Post by Kowalski »

Is your K&N filter one of the oiled cotton type? They are known to emit fine particles of oil which can kill MAF sensors.... could be the MAF senson.
KevMayer
Posts: 1051
Joined: 12 Sep 2003, 22:01
Location: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
My Cars:
x 2

Post by KevMayer »

I fitted the K&N filter last week. It had been in my Activa. I swapped it over to see if it would help my C5 to breath a little easier.

I've heard that the oil from the oiled cotton in these filters can slowly coat your MAF sensor and affect it's output. The K&N was introduced after the symptons so, can't be any part of the cause. But, a very good point. Thanks for the input.

Basically I've tried everything short of attaching a Lexia (my local Citroen specialist uses a Proxia... same but different).

The next step is to get all of my engine sensors checked out.

What will I have ?

Coolant Temp
Lambda
Crankshaft position
Anti Knock ? - is there one ?
MAF.. of course...
Cheers, Kev

02 plate C5 2.2 Hdi Exclusive SE (now 170k miles 03/21).

Used to have:- Xantia 1.9 TurboD SX. 1996 Blue & 1998 Silver Activa. + 1992 BX TZD Turbo.
User avatar
Old-Guy
Posts: 1798
Joined: 11 Sep 2008, 12:08
Location: Gloucestershire
My Cars: 2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
x 17

Post by Old-Guy »

While I'm not familiar with this engine or the C5, your symptoms sound like lack of boost pressure (actual or sensed). I'd concentrate on the unusual circumstances in which the problem occured:

Could:
- the inter-cooler be punctured, partly full of water, or externally 'blanked-off' by debris (e.g. plastic bag)?
- there be a pressure leak between the MAF and the main duct from intercooler to manifold?

Guy
2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
cachaciero
Posts: 1407
Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 07:24
Location: West Sussex U.K
My Cars:
x 9

Post by cachaciero »

KevMayer wrote:About 3 months ago I blanked of the EGR return to the inlet manifold to see if this made a difference.

Last week I removed the MAF and sprayed it with carb cleaner.

My swirl valves have been cable tied open for some time now (12 months or more).

Drilling a small drain hole in the bottom of the air box sounds like a usefull thing to do. At the moment though the airbox is dry since my recent checks.
I am curious about tying the swirl valves open? do you mean open i.e arm to the rear or closed arm to the front.

The swirl valves should normally be closed upto 2.5K rpm they will only open above 2.5K if the injected fuel is above a certain value.
In my experience if the swirl valves are held open the low end performance is substantialy poorer than if closed.
If I was faced not having working swirl valves then I would choose closed the improvements in low end torque and acceleration far outweighing the slight performance penalty caused over higher rev regimes by having them closed.

Frankly my advice is get it on a Lexia, p**sing around changing this and that without any clear idea as to where the problem lies is a) often futile b) usually expensive and c) often introduces new problems.

The 2.2 is considered by some to be unreliable IMHO if it is correctly maintained and operated as the designers intended it is no more unreliable than any other engine. That means having an EGR system that works as designed and the swirl valves working as designed just for starters, you cannot take out bits of this engine without affecting other things, well not unless you have the code for all the ECUS's and the ability to re-write it as required.

cachaciero
KevMayer
Posts: 1051
Joined: 12 Sep 2003, 22:01
Location: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
My Cars:
x 2

Post by KevMayer »

The swirl valve arm is tied back so the valves are open. I've had it like this for over a year. It's supposed to help the engine breathe better at low speed and Citroen apparently sell a device which you fit to keep the swirl valves open.

I've had the EGR blanked off for over a year. I've fitted a sheet of metal into the gap where the EGR pipe bolts to the inlet manifold. Isolating the EGR will help with slow speed response.

I've driven up the M1 and M6 today and my C5 will get to 70 but will not respond when pushed to 80 say. I tried it with foot hard on the accelerator pedal on a flat stretch of motorway and it would not go any faster than 90 mph. Top speed is supposed to be 127 mph. I really wouldn't try for 127. but, I'd expect it to do more than 90.

It's done 125k so something must be due for replacement. Maybe the injectors need to be refurbed? or a sensor need to be changed?
Cheers, Kev

02 plate C5 2.2 Hdi Exclusive SE (now 170k miles 03/21).

Used to have:- Xantia 1.9 TurboD SX. 1996 Blue & 1998 Silver Activa. + 1992 BX TZD Turbo.
boristhespie
Posts: 906
Joined: 07 May 2009, 19:51
Location: Angus
My Cars:
x 1

Post by boristhespie »

These are remarkably similar symptoms to the ones that boristhespie had with his first C5, that cleared on driving through a flood

Yeah but then 5 months later I got a warning light a number of costly trips to garage and nothing. Car is now sitting outside my house with 'orrible mechanical noises, like its about to fall to bits whenever I turn the key. I will record it for you. Scary, it really is.

One bit of advice. Don't listen to any garage that tells you to "We can't find anything best wait until something major happens". Have it seen to.

The same garage said the same thing about a suspected head gasket failure on replacement car.
C'est pas possible!
cachaciero
Posts: 1407
Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 07:24
Location: West Sussex U.K
My Cars:
x 9

Post by cachaciero »

Well little of that matches my experience, mine is definitely lacking go low down if the swirl valve is open, at low revs the breathing should be more than adequate on one valve so I assume that the turbulent flow into the combustion chamber really does produce the combustion improvements it's designed to, much as turbulent flow seems to be intuitively a dubious requirement in an HDI diesel. I
have never seen any Cit reference to keeping these open although there is a hardware / software mod applicable to early 2.2 to improve fuel consumption where it would appear that the operation of the system as delivered was ass about face the mod turned it around.
Oh yes! according to Cits documents correctly working swirl valves reduces the amount of carbon particulates which is good for the FAP. If what they say is true I guess that non working swirl valves would cause the FAP to coke up faster.

Would be interested in Wheelers take on this if he is reading it.

cachaciero
KevMayer
Posts: 1051
Joined: 12 Sep 2003, 22:01
Location: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
My Cars:
x 2

Post by KevMayer »

Good advice. I hear what you're saying.

I'll snip the cable tie to let the swirl valves work correctly and I'll remove the blank from the EGR pipe.
Cheers, Kev

02 plate C5 2.2 Hdi Exclusive SE (now 170k miles 03/21).

Used to have:- Xantia 1.9 TurboD SX. 1996 Blue & 1998 Silver Activa. + 1992 BX TZD Turbo.
cachaciero
Posts: 1407
Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 07:24
Location: West Sussex U.K
My Cars:
x 9

Post by cachaciero »

KevMayer wrote:Good advice. I hear what you're saying.

I'll snip the cable tie to let the swirl valves work correctly and I'll remove the blank from the EGR pipe.
Well suggest that you go slowly, the swirl valve diaphragm may not be working correctly. I suggest that you just wire the valves closed and then drive it to see what improvment if any you get, from 0-3K it should be good, you might find above 3K that the performance is falling off. Another complication with this system is that the swirl valve actuator uses the same vac source as the Turbo Modulation valve so any problems on the vac side can end up by affecting both swirl valves and turbo. Lack of vac to the turbo will likely cause it to overboost usually with the dreaded Antipollution message and LIMP mode.

If you do notice a low down improvment with the valves closed then time to get the system working correctly ,you really need to do some vac checks to test this system. I beleive that any 2.2 that has done more than 70K is likely to have holes in the swirl valve diaphragm causing it to work erratically and also screwing the turbo up through reduced vacuum.
Note the swirl valve needs vacuum on to shut the swirl valve lack of vacuum and the fail case is swirl valve open just where you don't want it for 90% of engine operation.

cachaciero
cachaciero
Posts: 1407
Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 07:24
Location: West Sussex U.K
My Cars:
x 9

Post by cachaciero »

KevMayer wrote:The swirl valve arm is tied back so the valves are open. I've had it like this for over a year. It's supposed to help the engine breathe better at low speed and Citroen apparently sell a device which you fit to keep the swirl valves open.


I've driven up the M1 and M6 today and my C5 will get to 70 but will not respond when pushed to 80 say. I tried it with foot hard on the accelerator pedal on a flat stretch of motorway and it would not go any faster than 90 mph. Top speed is supposed to be 127 mph. I really wouldn't try for 127. but, I'd expect it to do more than 90.

It's done 125k so something must be due for replacement. Maybe the injectors need to be refurbed? or a sensor need to be changed?
Hmmm.......! I have to say that the swirl valves wired open is the best position for 70+ conditions and if you can't get much more than this the problems is more than swirl valves.
Some possibilities lack of Turbo Pressure stuck turbo modulator valve might explain low turbo pressure. Lack of fuel failing HP pump or maybe lift pump. Choked FAP filter would expect a warning for this condition.

cachaciero
KevMayer
Posts: 1051
Joined: 12 Sep 2003, 22:01
Location: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
My Cars:
x 2

Post by KevMayer »

Been searching the internet and came across a few posts refering to how the Hdi fuel pump works.

How does the 3rd piston work?

Is it dissabled at low revs and only enabled at high pressure?

I've read that the connector on top of the pump has a permanent live feed and the ECU switches the earth to operate the solenoid. Does anyone know the operating cycle. Is the 3rd piston disabled at low pressure? If my 3rd piston were always disabled all the time, then would I get the lack of top end performance that I have right now?

My C5 has never had the performance that you'd expect from a 2.2 ltr 136 Bhp. My Xantia 1.9 turbod was just as quick as this C5.
Cheers, Kev

02 plate C5 2.2 Hdi Exclusive SE (now 170k miles 03/21).

Used to have:- Xantia 1.9 TurboD SX. 1996 Blue & 1998 Silver Activa. + 1992 BX TZD Turbo.
Post Reply