Spotted this beauty in the car park at work.

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Post by addo »

They do sort of have crumple zones - the driveline in a hard frontal impact seems to go under the car.
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Post by RoyChristie »

Xac wrote:Thicker pilars, stronger structure, crumple zones, airbags, anti-submarine seats/airbags, seatbelt pretensioners etc etc
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Post by Xaccers »

Image

Have you ever seen the US film footage of sedated pigs slamming into steering wheels to reproduce the effect of a human in a car accident hitting the wheel?
It folds down, and the rib cage slams into the steering column breaking in several places.
That tends to put a bit of a downer on one's day ;)

Pillars may be strong enough to hold 2ton, but 2ton in motion equates to a lot more.
My 205 had thicker pilars, yet if it wasn't for the B pillar bending inwards breaking my ribs, I'd be about 6 inches shorter from the A pillar collapsing down on me, or rather the car collapsing down on it.

Anti-submarine seats/airbags stop you slipping down under the seatbelt in an impact.

ABS would be a benefit, along with emergency brake assist
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Post by RoyChristie »

OUCH
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Post by aerodynamica »

That photo^^ actually shows the DS in a good light - the frontal impact has not travelled further back than the front axle and hence, not into the passenger compartment. As such, this photo does not really reinforce the claim that the DS is 'unsafe' compared to a modern in proportion. Wasn't this a picture of the car that some celebrity crashed? Dunno who though. It could have been any car and indeed, had that^ been a Mk2 Jag or something it may even have been worse.

I reckon the largest advancement in more modern road vehicles is actually in side impact protection - old cars, including the DS, offered next to no protection from a side impact. The DS had the advantage over many of its contemporaries in having large, high sills but still, the doors were light, hollow and possessed low level of strength in the side on orientation. Ditto, the relatively thin B pillar.

I think the DS was about the safest production car available for most of its life but it's relative to the so called 'controlled rate' of distortion in modern cars. The D still had effective front crumple zone.

Sadly, even now, the latest cars are still chronically under strong for the forces that are potentially forcing through their structure in large impacts. Still, better than 50 years ago. There is no absolute solution except forcing a very low speed limit. You can make the car totally rigid but the deceleration forces would be even higher (as was shown on a topgear stunt with a Smart car) and where a 'crumple zone' car would sever your limbs and chop your head off, the Smart could snap your neck due to such deceleration.

The excellent visibility on old Citroens like the DS, GS and CX saloon and estates is sadly lacking in moderns - the visibility is appauling. One of the very few things I disliked about my Xantia was the crappy rearward visibility. My CX saloon has near 360 deg. of visibility - ideal for spotting kids etc while parking. Good old passive safety.

I disagree about the need for the DS to have emergency brake assist: the DS's power brakes and mechanical brake force distribution are still more than adequate - My CX can pull up instantly from sub 40mph urban conditions faster than anything else I've driven (even the recent Alfa Spider V6 4x4 I drove) Citroen brakes used to be legendary! Cadence braking is also more effective on old style Citroen brakes as a higher frequency of cadence is permitted due to the short travel pedal and no brake fade. No modern car can achieve that without ABS.

Citroen design used to be all about the avoidance of incidents: tyre blow out? Centre point steering geometry coupled with non-deflecting hydraulic tracking and it was about the only car that could come to a s safe a stop as can be done with a popped tyre. The DS with all that space ahead of the engine and 'box was certainly 'like' a crumple zone and being of the time when Cit used to store the spare wheel in the right place - under the bonnet - that offered another mass to take lots of the energy. Visibility has been said, The exterior lighting systems that aided night driving such as DS directional lamps and the elevated rear signal lights that were much more visible than those located lower down - hell, you could probably see what the DS 2 cars ahead in a line was going to do! Not so any other car.
The DS single arm steering wheel seems silly now but compared to the Ralph Nader "spike aimed at the heart" pointed hubs of the contemporaries, the DS was like the only option for safety in this way - CX, GS, BX, XM S1 continued this as you know. But none of that is primary now - the old 'Volvo approach' of accidents are inevitable so try to minimise their effect has truly won that argument and as such all cars are loaded with the add on stuff such as airbags, etc accordingly and dictated by legislation. Ironically, cars are also a LOT faster than they were! and I'm still certain that with ABS, ESP, airbags, air curtains, anti submarineing seats, brake assists et cetera, you're still dead meat if you're head - on chomped by a big rig HGV or something.

I'd happily drive an old car in these modern times - the safety improvements on new cars are at best going to see you crippled as opposed to fully dead and at worst, pure marketing and legislation homogenisation of sub systems.

In a nutshell: a DS/CX is as good if not better than a modern in avoiding many incidents. Any major crash that calls for the listed safety add ons^^ mentioned is gonna pretty much mess up your year anyway and I personally wouldn't care what I was in.

Drive safe now!
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Post by falling-out-with-my-car »

why does everyone want computerization and air-bags and crappy electronics in the name of saftey, better off with out all that and having good fuel economy.

I spose Citroen wouldn't remake it as it was most of it these days would be plastic like the new beetle.

and to top it all off I bet Citroen would abandon the suspension and put it on springs. it wouldn't be the same car. isnt it time drivers started looking ahead and not just in front of their bonnets?
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Post by davewithington »

Ref Citroen brakes, emergency assist was introduced originally because most people did not apply conventional brakes hard enough in an emergency situation.

It's almost impossible not to apply Citroen brakes hard enough - just breathing on my GS a bit heavy gave incredible retardation, virtually had to learn how to drive again. My ex wife in her GSA did a crash stop to avoid a child running out into the road, the GSA pulled up instanter in a straight line, the Sierra behind locked all four wheels and went sideways trying not to run into her.

Don't think we need assist.

Saw a lovely dark green body/ white roof DS near the Eiffel Tower on Saturday, very nice condition.
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Post by jonathan_dyane »

Citroen actually pioneered brake assist in the 1950s with the ID. Originally fitted with a seperate braking system with a master cylinder, there was a valve which, under panic braking permitted pressure from the main hydraulics circuit to enter the master cylinder giving brake assist.

As stated, obviously any 'proper' hydraulic Cit (DS, G, SM, CX, BX, XM, Xantia) has no need for brake assist given the level of braking power immediately available in a small movement of the brake pedal.
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Post by Xaccers »

perhaps I should clarify as I probably used the wrong term.
To me Emergency Brake assist lets the driver floor the brake pedal in an emergency at high speed while the brake system takes care of applying full brakes then off then on. I forget the term for the technique which stops you in the shortest distance.
It's not brake assist where the car just applies more braking power than the pedal alone would call for.
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Post by RoyChristie »

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Post by jonathan_dyane »

Xac wrote:perhaps I should clarify as I probably used the wrong term.
To me Emergency Brake assist lets the driver floor the brake pedal in an emergency at high speed while the brake system takes care of applying full brakes then off then on. I forget the term for the technique which stops you in the shortest distance.
It's not brake assist where the car just applies more braking power than the pedal alone would call for.
Xac, I think you are referring to ABS (anti-lock brakes). They can be useful, but also a hindrance at times equally. On a wet and greasy road I once pulled off an emergency manouver in a GSA sans ABS which my BX with ABS would not have accomplished in a million years.

As far as I am concerned the safest cars are those that stop you from getting into the accident in the first place, through accomplished handling and good design. Add-ons such as ABS, Traction control, ESP et al can be just a salve for bad design (Merc A-class anyone?)
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Post by Xaccers »

ABS just applies the braking pressure you've decided on with your foot until the wheels nearly lock, then it releases and re-applies it.
The system I'm talking about applies full braking pressure, automatically doing what is a manual braking technique of stamping on the brakes then releasing them giving maximum braking with no fade.
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Post by DickieG »

This gives some idea of the strength of a DS in a simple roll, thin pillars have a downside :(
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Post by Xaccers »

DickieG wrote:This gives some idea of the strength of a DS in a simple roll, thin pillars have a downside :(
Thank you for posting that again Richard, I was looking for it when I found the photo I posted.
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Post by addo »

That's a reasonable clip, they've been going at.

They survived:
Les occupants de cette DS sont vivants, mais suite au choc, ils sont tombés dans un coma de plusieurs jours, transportés en urgence en hélicoptère (visible sur la 8e image), et l'hopitalisé pour de multiples blessures.
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