They are probably flow soldered in molten solder. You don't need a lot of solder to fit the IC's to the panel but you do need a lot of heat. I only used a small iron but it was temperature controlled so heated quite quickly, I laid the bit across the heat sink section of the transistor so as to transfer a lot of heat quickly, the temperature is not as important as the speed.
I expect they will stay on OK but if you do have access to a higher wattage iron, just press it fairly hard on as much exposed metal as you can and the solder should flow out nicely. Go over the surface with a stiff brush when you have finished, just in case any whiskers are causing a short circuit.
Well done for having a go!
Peter
VN05N removal (she's alive!)
Moderator: RichardW
the saga continues...
i did the diode fix, and rechecked the fuses, turns out i was checking the wrong fuse (cos it was dark), the hydractive fuse is a 20a fuse, in it's place was a 5a fuse?!? So I put a 20a fuse in it's place and I hear click/hiss coming from the hydractive ecu, followed by a "smell", oh dear, i am opening it up now, I will post pictures of any damage.
I reckon I've ballsed this one up!
i did the diode fix, and rechecked the fuses, turns out i was checking the wrong fuse (cos it was dark), the hydractive fuse is a 20a fuse, in it's place was a 5a fuse?!? So I put a 20a fuse in it's place and I hear click/hiss coming from the hydractive ecu, followed by a "smell", oh dear, i am opening it up now, I will post pictures of any damage.
I reckon I've ballsed this one up!
-
CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
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Not necessarily Dei,
The first signs were very hopeful...
See what has fried and then work from there. It might need a bit of drawing of the circuit around the VN05s to see what is going on. The, with a meter and maybe a 'scope, a bit of diagnosis may be done...
Shame nobody has a circuit diagram of the ECU. It would be so helpful....
Watching with great interest. I'll not be above opening an ECU here to check voltages and waveforms if it comes to that...
Do you have a 'scope or access to one?
The first signs were very hopeful...
See what has fried and then work from there. It might need a bit of drawing of the circuit around the VN05s to see what is going on. The, with a meter and maybe a 'scope, a bit of diagnosis may be done...
Shame nobody has a circuit diagram of the ECU. It would be so helpful....
Watching with great interest. I'll not be above opening an ECU here to check voltages and waveforms if it comes to that...
Do you have a 'scope or access to one?
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Now who was it that said that a faulty VN05N can bring down the BUZ11?
I assume it acts as a fuse, isn't it a power regulator or something?
I think it's my dodgy soldering to be honest, cos the path that leads from the 'destroyed' pin of the BUZ11 leads directly to a certain outer pin on the VN05N's, and I am sure f00lz mentioned something about contamination to the solder and that it would cause problems later....
RS don't have their BUZ11's in until the 20th of January, I did order them with the vn05n's but i cancelled the buz11's in case it would delay my order, turns out like i need them after all, i will try soldering one back in, and tidying up my soldering of the vn05n's and see how it goes next time, we're talking end of the month now. The vn05n's still look ok though, can't see any more burning on the board.
But I should have check those fuses properly in the begining, but it does make you wonder why a 5a fuse was there in the first place. What a great start to the new year!
I assume it acts as a fuse, isn't it a power regulator or something?
I think it's my dodgy soldering to be honest, cos the path that leads from the 'destroyed' pin of the BUZ11 leads directly to a certain outer pin on the VN05N's, and I am sure f00lz mentioned something about contamination to the solder and that it would cause problems later....
RS don't have their BUZ11's in until the 20th of January, I did order them with the vn05n's but i cancelled the buz11's in case it would delay my order, turns out like i need them after all, i will try soldering one back in, and tidying up my soldering of the vn05n's and see how it goes next time, we're talking end of the month now. The vn05n's still look ok though, can't see any more burning on the board.
But I should have check those fuses properly in the begining, but it does make you wonder why a 5a fuse was there in the first place. What a great start to the new year!
-
xmexclusive
- Posts: 419
- Joined: 18 Dec 2008, 22:50
- Location:
- My Cars:
Hi deian
The BUZ11 is not a regulator. The L4705 (5volt) regulator is on the pad next to the BUZ11. The L4705 is a special very low drop voltage regulator and should not be replaced with any other generic device. The reason for this is that when the starter is engaged the battery voltage can drop as low as 6volts for a few seconds. Using a L4705 keeps the ECU alive while the starter is engaged.
The BUZ11 is a power MOSFET high speed switch.
The VN05N are solid state (electronic) relays and the BUZ11 is the electronic switch that operates those two VN05N relays. MOSFET devices are one of the most static sensitive electronic components. They are more likely to be killed by using an unprotected soldering iron on the ECU than by the VN05N's malfunctioning in service.
It looks to me that your BUZ11 has burnt out where its earth pin is connected to the main junction. This would happen if the BUZ11 went dead short.
Most soldering irons are direct feed from the mains supply and are not suitable for use in a static sensitive environment. In that case an isolated soldering iron (as you see in some of Jim's electronic photos) is typically used along with an earthed bench surface to work on.
The holes in printed circuit boards are usually through plated so they are better cleaned out with a solder sucker as drilling may damage or destroy the through plating.
I have a few spare bits so might be able to find a few recovered devices for you. If you are anywhere near me (North Hampshire) then PM me if you think I can help with the repair or perhaps a loan ECU.
Edit note: just looked and seen Anglesey. Get Paul to loan you an ECU.
Sorry that it has not gone perfectly.
Regards
John
The BUZ11 is not a regulator. The L4705 (5volt) regulator is on the pad next to the BUZ11. The L4705 is a special very low drop voltage regulator and should not be replaced with any other generic device. The reason for this is that when the starter is engaged the battery voltage can drop as low as 6volts for a few seconds. Using a L4705 keeps the ECU alive while the starter is engaged.
The BUZ11 is a power MOSFET high speed switch.
The VN05N are solid state (electronic) relays and the BUZ11 is the electronic switch that operates those two VN05N relays. MOSFET devices are one of the most static sensitive electronic components. They are more likely to be killed by using an unprotected soldering iron on the ECU than by the VN05N's malfunctioning in service.
It looks to me that your BUZ11 has burnt out where its earth pin is connected to the main junction. This would happen if the BUZ11 went dead short.
Most soldering irons are direct feed from the mains supply and are not suitable for use in a static sensitive environment. In that case an isolated soldering iron (as you see in some of Jim's electronic photos) is typically used along with an earthed bench surface to work on.
The holes in printed circuit boards are usually through plated so they are better cleaned out with a solder sucker as drilling may damage or destroy the through plating.
I have a few spare bits so might be able to find a few recovered devices for you. If you are anywhere near me (North Hampshire) then PM me if you think I can help with the repair or perhaps a loan ECU.
Edit note: just looked and seen Anglesey. Get Paul to loan you an ECU.
Sorry that it has not gone perfectly.
Regards
John
Xmexclusive
don't be sorry john, all my fault really, i've been looking at my soldering thorugh a magnifying glass and a strong whit led light and it's not as tidy as it should be to be honest, i really should equip myself better, i understand the theory about the feed going through the soldering iron, and it does make sense, i secretly hope it's my bad soldering, and if i tidy it up that a new buz11 might work next time round, if not i will be hunting for a new hydractive ecu, pointless having the vsx spec car if the suspension isn't working correctlyxmexclusive wrote:Hi deian
The BUZ11 is not a regulator. The L4705 (5volt) regulator is on the pad next to the BUZ11. The L4705 is a special very low drop voltage regulator and should not be replaced with any other generic device. The reason for this is that when the starter is engaged the battery voltage can drop as low as 6volts for a few seconds. Using a L4705 keeps the ECU alive while the starter is engaged.
The BUZ11 is a power MOSFET high speed switch.
The VN05N are solid state (electronic) relays and the BUZ11 is the electronic switch that operates those two VN05N relays. MOSFET devices are one of the most static sensitive electronic components. They are more likely to be killed by using an unprotected soldering iron on the ECU than by the VN05N's malfunctioning in service.
It looks to me that your BUZ11 has burnt out where its earth pin is connected to the main junction. This would happen if the BUZ11 went dead short.
Most soldering irons are direct feed from the mains supply and are not suitable for use in a static sensitive environment. In that case an isolated soldering iron (as you see in some of Jim's electronic photos) is typically used along with an earthed bench surface to work on.
The holes in printed circuit boards are usually through plated so they are better cleaned out with a solder sucker as drilling may damage or destroy the through plating.
I have a few spare bits so might be able to find a few recovered devices for you. If you are anywhere near me (North Hampshire) then PM me if you think I can help with the repair or perhaps a loan ECU.
Sorry that it has not gone perfectly.
Regards
John
i have ordered some now, even if it doesn't work at least i will have some spare to hand out to forum members if they want some, they are on back-order by RS and are available on the 25th of january now, thankfully the L4075 is still intact and they don't seem to be available now.
am i right in thinking that my shabby soldering caused a short in the buz11? there is a path that goes from a certain pin from both the vn05n's over the top (along side the connectors) and down towards the buz11's source pin.
i should invest in a gas powered soldering iron, no messing with earths then
sadly i am not an electronic engineer (yet), i am gonna give up my job this year to go to uni in liverpool to do mechatronics and robotics, after an intensive access course, that should get me up to scratch on these ecu's!
(pm sent)
Generally speaking a properly earthed mains powered soldering iron shouldn't cause a static problem.
What can cause a problem is the differential in potential between you , the soldering iron and the work piece.
You need to earth yourself at the same potential as the iron , and also earth the surface you are working on , which generally means working on a conductive mat. This prevents static discharges between the three area's.
For soldering work of this type a temperature controlled iron with the correct (small) size tip is needed , and the correct type of solder.
I wouldn't recommend a gas iron , the temperature is not well regulated and you can't easily earth them.
What can cause a problem is the differential in potential between you , the soldering iron and the work piece.
You need to earth yourself at the same potential as the iron , and also earth the surface you are working on , which generally means working on a conductive mat. This prevents static discharges between the three area's.
For soldering work of this type a temperature controlled iron with the correct (small) size tip is needed , and the correct type of solder.
I wouldn't recommend a gas iron , the temperature is not well regulated and you can't easily earth them.
Now using '00 Xantia LX HDI, pov spec 
My past Citroens :-
'00 Xantia SX HDI, now dead due to accident
'99 Xantia HDI 110 Exclusive, RIP
'97 Xantia TD SX
'96 Xantia TD LX
'96 ZX TD
'89 BX TD
'88 AX GT
'79 CX2400 Pallas (scrapped )
& a couple of Peugeots !
My past Citroens :-
'00 Xantia SX HDI, now dead due to accident
'99 Xantia HDI 110 Exclusive, RIP
'97 Xantia TD SX
'96 Xantia TD LX
'96 ZX TD
'89 BX TD
'88 AX GT
'79 CX2400 Pallas (scrapped
)& a couple of Peugeots !
After looking at iron, something puts me off the gas ones, so all taken on board, i've seen some 'esd earthed' iron about, i wonder i my dad's weller temp controlled one is earthed, might possible be, mine is just a 25w antex one.HDI wrote:Generally speaking a properly earthed mains powered soldering iron shouldn't cause a static problem.
What can cause a problem is the differential in potential between you , the soldering iron and the work piece.
You need to earth yourself at the same potential as the iron , and also earth the surface you are working on , which generally means working on a conductive mat. This prevents static discharges between the three area's.
For soldering work of this type a temperature controlled iron with the correct (small) size tip is needed , and the correct type of solder.
I wouldn't recommend a gas iron , the temperature is not well regulated and you can't easily earth them.
I'm wondering if a mechanically stuck electrovalve could blow the electronics?
Your Dad's temp controlled Weller is the one for the job , that's what I use.
A jammed solenoid valve , which is what an electro valve is , shouldn't pull any more current than a working one , unless the coil is faulty.
A jammed solenoid valve , which is what an electro valve is , shouldn't pull any more current than a working one , unless the coil is faulty.
Now using '00 Xantia LX HDI, pov spec
My past Citroens :-
'00 Xantia SX HDI, now dead due to accident
'99 Xantia HDI 110 Exclusive, RIP
'97 Xantia TD SX
'96 Xantia TD LX
'96 ZX TD
'89 BX TD
'88 AX GT
'79 CX2400 Pallas (scrapped )
& a couple of Peugeots !
My past Citroens :-
'00 Xantia SX HDI, now dead due to accident
'99 Xantia HDI 110 Exclusive, RIP
'97 Xantia TD SX
'96 Xantia TD LX
'96 ZX TD
'89 BX TD
'88 AX GT
'79 CX2400 Pallas (scrapped
)& a couple of Peugeots !
-
xmexclusive
- Posts: 419
- Joined: 18 Dec 2008, 22:50
- Location:
- My Cars:
I agree with HDI about the gas iron. PCB's are easy to catch on fire and they can give off some pretty nasty fumes as they burn.
On the question of damage risk to electronics while static is usually taken as the main concern power supply earthing has to be right too unless you use an isolated soldering iron. Static typically can be very high voltage but virtually no current. The current is immaterial as the high voltage alone is easily enough to zap most modern microelectronics. Even quite low voltages are enough to zap microelectronics. What is not always recognised is the permitted tolerances in the earthing of the electrical supply can also generate high enough potential differences to zap electronics. In practice not all domestic systems comply with modern tolerances. Unlike static any problems of this nature cannot be checked for on a DIY basis hence the recommendation to use an isolated soldering iron for working on micro electronics.
John
On the question of damage risk to electronics while static is usually taken as the main concern power supply earthing has to be right too unless you use an isolated soldering iron. Static typically can be very high voltage but virtually no current. The current is immaterial as the high voltage alone is easily enough to zap most modern microelectronics. Even quite low voltages are enough to zap microelectronics. What is not always recognised is the permitted tolerances in the earthing of the electrical supply can also generate high enough potential differences to zap electronics. In practice not all domestic systems comply with modern tolerances. Unlike static any problems of this nature cannot be checked for on a DIY basis hence the recommendation to use an isolated soldering iron for working on micro electronics.
John
Xmexclusive
-
CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 49619
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- Location: Paggers
- My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
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No, a duff electrovalve or associated wiring should not kill a VN05 as it's short-circuit and thermally protected internally to guard against such things.
I agree on the static and soldering irons. Most important is to make sure you, the iron and the work is at the same potential and one danger is working on a nylon carpet wearing plastic shoes. You can generate a lot of static that way...
Our old benches had conductive rubber mats, we stood on one and always touched the bench mat before starting. I've never used a wrist strap and touch-wood, never killed anything yet. provided you equalise potentials, no worries but never use an old-fashioned mains iron that's earthed directly to the mains earth. If you must, disconnect the earth...
I agree on the static and soldering irons. Most important is to make sure you, the iron and the work is at the same potential and one danger is working on a nylon carpet wearing plastic shoes. You can generate a lot of static that way...
Our old benches had conductive rubber mats, we stood on one and always touched the bench mat before starting. I've never used a wrist strap and touch-wood, never killed anything yet. provided you equalise potentials, no worries but never use an old-fashioned mains iron that's earthed directly to the mains earth. If you must, disconnect the earth...
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
bog standard soldering iron, earthing mats whats that all about? 
well i may have story of a replacement! if it goes well i will see wot to do with the old one, may just give it a final BUZ with my unearthed iron, to be fair, the buz11 did have dark marks before it blew itself up so maybe the clues were already there, i didn't have any massive expectation of it completely working, it was only ever a 'go at it', it's just a shame about the wasted effort
must be more prepared next time
must be more prepared next time