Far from it Malc, im often wrong...The main part of our job is answering queries over the phone without seeing the vehicle....a bit like here i guess, so there is always scope for getting stuff wrong...especially on later model vehiclescitronut wrote:Vince wrote
"He got the calipers checked and hey presto....i was right "
whats it (no not PERCY) like beeing right all the time Vince,
i keep tryingit but i never get it quite right TEA HE,
regards malcolm
brake judder air?
Moderator: RichardW
1993 Citroen xm 2.1td, silver/grey, bowling ball wheel trims, 210k and climbing...
- Old-Guy
- Posts: 1798
- Joined: 11 Sep 2008, 12:08
- Location: Gloucestershire
- My Cars: 2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm) - x 17
Disc data
When researching discs for my own '95TD estate, from a variety of sources I compiled and cross-checked the following data:
FRONT (Ventilated)
Dia Thick
266 x 20.4 was fitted to most hatchbacks.
283 x 22 should be fitted to estates and higher power hatchbacks.
288 x 28 S1 - only V6. S2 - all HDi 110 & V6, plus 2.0 CT & 2.1 TD after RP 8001.
REAR (Solid)
224 x 9 Hatchbacks
251 x 12 Estates
There are tales of 1.8 petrol hatchbacks built with 283 discs and estates with 266s. As callipers are different for each size of disc, check before reaching the point of no return!!
The data above, plus a step-by-step guide to changing pads and discs can be downloaded as a PDF file
FRONT (Ventilated)
Dia Thick
266 x 20.4 was fitted to most hatchbacks.
283 x 22 should be fitted to estates and higher power hatchbacks.
288 x 28 S1 - only V6. S2 - all HDi 110 & V6, plus 2.0 CT & 2.1 TD after RP 8001.
REAR (Solid)
224 x 9 Hatchbacks
251 x 12 Estates
There are tales of 1.8 petrol hatchbacks built with 283 discs and estates with 266s. As callipers are different for each size of disc, check before reaching the point of no return!!
The data above, plus a step-by-step guide to changing pads and discs can be downloaded as a PDF file
2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
I got back from the spares and GSF Brixton had given me the wrong pads, i discovered with the brakes stripped in the street, and the shop an hour's bus ride away in the traffic. That was after I asked them to check it was right, it was the same as for smaller discs surely not? They didn't look right, according to memory. They checked and assured me.
When I rang GSF later, they checked again and said the right ones were not in stock until Monday; 'That bit of their catalogue was a bit ropey '
Luckily the local spares shop had the right ones. I fitted them, a race against daylight. But now I'm having a cup oof tea, having changed out of my filthy overalls, before I test drive.
The good news so far: Near side disc was hotter on a just a three mile traffic run than the n/s.
I'll let you know the outcome soon, this evening. I'll take bets: £1000.00 it's solved (kidding).
When I rang GSF later, they checked again and said the right ones were not in stock until Monday; 'That bit of their catalogue was a bit ropey '
Luckily the local spares shop had the right ones. I fitted them, a race against daylight. But now I'm having a cup oof tea, having changed out of my filthy overalls, before I test drive.
The good news so far: Near side disc was hotter on a just a three mile traffic run than the n/s.
I'll let you know the outcome soon, this evening. I'll take bets: £1000.00 it's solved (kidding).
John Plum
Xantia II Estate,1999, 2.0 HDI LX, 17000 miles, manual
Xantia II Estate,1999, 2.0 HDI LX, 17000 miles, manual
More symptoms:
The kick back in the pedal and noise
fades a little after prior braking, and...
occurs more toward then end of the pedal travel..or with firmer braking.
The kick back in the pedal and noise
fades a little after prior braking, and...
occurs more toward then end of the pedal travel..or with firmer braking.
Last edited by John Plum on 24 Oct 2009, 00:54, edited 1 time in total.
John Plum
Xantia II Estate,1999, 2.0 HDI LX, 17000 miles, manual
Xantia II Estate,1999, 2.0 HDI LX, 17000 miles, manual
It's very disappointing. I 'm a bit stumped.
The noise is like rattling and popping, and rapid, or even knocking. It's quite loud and reverberates through the cabin I think, though I'm not sure what it is. I'm beginning to think it's something more mechanical. The noise matches the kick back in the pedal, but varies in loudness, and does seem to fade with use a bit, but definitely not for long.
As for hydraulics, the hydraulic pump is loud at idle, I think ticking too much , a mechanical squeal as well, goes quiet with acceleration. I have few hydraulic pipe seals on order for sealing slowly seeping pipes, one for the main pipe to hydraulic pump and a couple for the rear height corrector.
Where should I start next I wonder?
The noise is like rattling and popping, and rapid, or even knocking. It's quite loud and reverberates through the cabin I think, though I'm not sure what it is. I'm beginning to think it's something more mechanical. The noise matches the kick back in the pedal, but varies in loudness, and does seem to fade with use a bit, but definitely not for long.
As for hydraulics, the hydraulic pump is loud at idle, I think ticking too much , a mechanical squeal as well, goes quiet with acceleration. I have few hydraulic pipe seals on order for sealing slowly seeping pipes, one for the main pipe to hydraulic pump and a couple for the rear height corrector.
Where should I start next I wonder?
John Plum
Xantia II Estate,1999, 2.0 HDI LX, 17000 miles, manual
Xantia II Estate,1999, 2.0 HDI LX, 17000 miles, manual
As I suggested earlier, have you checked the condition of the flexible hoses? A weakened hose that bulges under pressure can cause this exact set of symptoms. Hard to spot but it happens.
Andy
Andy
Citroenless at the moment. CX or GS that is my dilemma!
2011 Volvo V70 D3
85 Mercedes 805d Campervan (Betsy))
2011 Volvo V70 D3
85 Mercedes 805d Campervan (Betsy))
-
OnlineCitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 49531
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- Location: Paggers
- My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
- x 6160
- Contact:
Yes, it sounds like there is a lot of air in the system. A good bleed and intense citarobics are recommended.
John, the pump will be noisy when it is working hard to recharge the accumulator. Don't confuse this noise with the regulator tick. Pumps are noticeably more noisy on petrol engined cars because you don't have the diesel clatter to drown it out.
Your problem is also indicative of a flat accumulator. Listen for ticks from the pressure regulator and if they occur at more than 30s intervals. the accumulator is duff or you have a heavy internal leak somewhere. Also, once up to pressure, the pump should spend most of it's time running silently as it'll be effectively idling, just returning fluid back to the reservoir. The ticks you hear from the pressure regulator is the sound of it cutting in when the accumulator needs a top-up. You should hear the pump labour for just a few seconds whilst it builds pressure and the regularor cuts out and then it should go quiet again until the cycle repeats again, no sooner than the aforesaid 30s. A constantly labouring pump is very indicitive of a flat accumulator or a heavy leak. It will also make the pipes weep at their seals too as apart from being a reserve of pressure, the accumulator also works as a hydraulic damper to even out the pressure pulses in the system.
Another thing that can cause the brakes to feel and act strangely is if someone has replaced the spring link between the brake pedal pendant and the dosuer valve with a solid rod. It is a popular mod that sharpens up the pedal response but it does not suit all. On some it does have undesirable (in my experience and opinion) consequences. The spring can be found in a black tube that sticks out at right angles behind the pedal and rests on the head of the dosuer valve. Lift the pedal up has high as it will go, feel for the tube, pull it out and split the tube apart by releasing the collet in the middle. You'll either find a big spring or a length of 15mm copper water pipe inside.
John, the pump will be noisy when it is working hard to recharge the accumulator. Don't confuse this noise with the regulator tick. Pumps are noticeably more noisy on petrol engined cars because you don't have the diesel clatter to drown it out.
Your problem is also indicative of a flat accumulator. Listen for ticks from the pressure regulator and if they occur at more than 30s intervals. the accumulator is duff or you have a heavy internal leak somewhere. Also, once up to pressure, the pump should spend most of it's time running silently as it'll be effectively idling, just returning fluid back to the reservoir. The ticks you hear from the pressure regulator is the sound of it cutting in when the accumulator needs a top-up. You should hear the pump labour for just a few seconds whilst it builds pressure and the regularor cuts out and then it should go quiet again until the cycle repeats again, no sooner than the aforesaid 30s. A constantly labouring pump is very indicitive of a flat accumulator or a heavy leak. It will also make the pipes weep at their seals too as apart from being a reserve of pressure, the accumulator also works as a hydraulic damper to even out the pressure pulses in the system.
Another thing that can cause the brakes to feel and act strangely is if someone has replaced the spring link between the brake pedal pendant and the dosuer valve with a solid rod. It is a popular mod that sharpens up the pedal response but it does not suit all. On some it does have undesirable (in my experience and opinion) consequences. The spring can be found in a black tube that sticks out at right angles behind the pedal and rests on the head of the dosuer valve. Lift the pedal up has high as it will go, feel for the tube, pull it out and split the tube apart by releasing the collet in the middle. You'll either find a big spring or a length of 15mm copper water pipe inside.
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
What kind of noise would lower suspension mountings make
Would it boom a bit, and be rapid under braking?
I'll have to check them properly anyway.
Alternatively, can I rule out the automatic gearbox ? Free de-acceleration is fine though.
Would it boom a bit, and be rapid under braking?
I'll have to check them properly anyway.
Alternatively, can I rule out the automatic gearbox ? Free de-acceleration is fine though.
John Plum
Xantia II Estate,1999, 2.0 HDI LX, 17000 miles, manual
Xantia II Estate,1999, 2.0 HDI LX, 17000 miles, manual
Sorry Guys, I missed your posts as I began mine.
@Featch: I have the hose check on my list: they looked OK but need to be to investigate by being rougher technique.
@ Citronut: I used a self-bleed kit, and just let some out into a bottle, but not so very much. It is a bit brownish (the filter is spotless!), and I have it on my list tomorrow to get replace, and do a complete bleed. Looks like I should do it with an accumulator too.
@CitroJim. AH yes, It's the accumulator, I was beginning to pay closer attention to the spheres and LHM at this point, so mentioned the noise, because all that had become hazy to me, since I sorted the BX thoroughly. (I did replace that pump there, because of the bearing noise..amazing how they run on). Probably should replace all spheres now, along with LHM.
I am very much heartened again. I will also check the lower suspension bushes tomorrow. Thanks a lot for being so quick and direct with the help here.
John
@Featch: I have the hose check on my list: they looked OK but need to be to investigate by being rougher technique.
@ Citronut: I used a self-bleed kit, and just let some out into a bottle, but not so very much. It is a bit brownish (the filter is spotless!), and I have it on my list tomorrow to get replace, and do a complete bleed. Looks like I should do it with an accumulator too.
@CitroJim. AH yes, It's the accumulator, I was beginning to pay closer attention to the spheres and LHM at this point, so mentioned the noise, because all that had become hazy to me, since I sorted the BX thoroughly. (I did replace that pump there, because of the bearing noise..amazing how they run on). Probably should replace all spheres now, along with LHM.
I am very much heartened again. I will also check the lower suspension bushes tomorrow. Thanks a lot for being so quick and direct with the help here.
John
John Plum
Xantia II Estate,1999, 2.0 HDI LX, 17000 miles, manual
Xantia II Estate,1999, 2.0 HDI LX, 17000 miles, manual
John,
I'm sure I've read on here before that the back brakes take A LOT of bleeding, since the line goes from the wheel to the doseur valve (at the front!) and back again. Was a figure of 1/2 pint mentioned (from memory)? Might be worth bleeding a bit more until the fluid is the same colour as that in the reservoir. And then topping up.
James
I'm sure I've read on here before that the back brakes take A LOT of bleeding, since the line goes from the wheel to the doseur valve (at the front!) and back again. Was a figure of 1/2 pint mentioned (from memory)? Might be worth bleeding a bit more until the fluid is the same colour as that in the reservoir. And then topping up.
James
Now Citroenless for the first time in 20 years
2008 Mazda RX-8 231
2007 Honda CR-V Auto
John you missed my point on how you bled the brakes, all you need to do is with a clear tube attatched to one of the bleed kniples and the other end in a container, and with the kniple open,engine running, press and hold the brake pedle till you get a good stronge flow of citro blood, no close that kniple and go on to the next,
i was asking if you had used the above method
and not the up down,up down,up down,up down,up down,up down,
up down, method
regards malcolm
i was asking if you had used the above method
and not the up down,up down,up down,up down,up down,up down,
up down, method
regards malcolm