How do I convert Xantia 90Hdi to 110Hdi?

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Kowalski
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Post by Kowalski »

lolingram wrote:
There are some differences between the HDI 90 and 110 internal to the engines, for example, the crankshaft end thrust washers are a different part
Revue Technique quotes different dwell (I think inlet cam).... also slightly bigger bearing areas around the crank journals.
The crank, shells, connecting rods and pistons have the same part number according to servis.citroen, so I'm not sure how they could have different bearing areas.
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Post by Stunned Monkey »

Variable vane turbos weren't about when the HDi was developed. it's definitely not a VVT. Boost control is achieved with a very clever vac-actuated (ECU controlled) wastegate.

The 90 is less powerful, less economical and more polluting. The obvious question that nobody has ever been able to explain to me is why on earth they bothered with the 90 in the first place.... I believe the 110 debuted first, the 90 was then cobbled together as a "poverty spec" version of the same engine. :roll:
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Post by lolingram »

lolingram wrote:
Quote:
There are some differences between the HDI 90 and 110 internal to the engines, for example, the crankshaft end thrust washers are a different part


Revue Technique quotes different dwell (I think inlet cam).... also slightly bigger bearing areas around the crank journals.


The crank, shells, connecting rods and pistons have the same part number according to servis.citroen, so I'm not sure how they could have different bearing areas.
I'll look again the next time I can sneak a look at Revue Technique... pretty sure about the cam though.
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Post by rmunns »

Thanks, all of you. I think I'll forget trying to change!
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Post by mark21td »

If there the same as the 406 (still PSA so I would of thought so) the 110 has a duel mass flywheel (£200 + to replace) but the 90 is a normal setup.
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Post by citroenxm »

Hi,

LUCKILY for us, the Xantia DID NOT Get the Dual Mass, It didnt come to us untill after a year or so into C5 run...

Paul
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
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Post by Kowalski »

Stunned Monkey wrote:Variable vane turbos weren't about when the HDi was developed. it's definitely not a VVT. Boost control is achieved with a very clever vac-actuated (ECU controlled) wastegate.
You're right that neither the HDI 90 nor HDI 110 have variable vane turbos, the later HDI 136 (both 2.0 and 2.2) have variable nozzle turbos which accomplish the same job in a slightly different way.

Audi had variable vane turbo fitted to their 1.9 TD with 11O bhp as far back as '95, and they were not the first to use that technology on a road car.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vo ... DI_66-81kW
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Post by Citroenmad »

I think the 90 has a slightly different gearbox? Or so a road test was was reading the other day stated. Very very slightly different gear ratios, so nothing really.

However if you want to up the power to 110, dont bother fitting the 110 things, just get it remapped. It should easily see 110bhp and more, may increase MPG too. Depends on the map type and how you drive it.

Remap would be my option, they do well with a remap.

Chris.
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Post by citroenxm »

CitroenMad,

Gearbox's are different, 110's are MLt5, and 90's are the older BE cable clutch..

Final drive I think is slightly different but I cant remember now when mum had her 90 what it was like..

Flywheels between the boxes are different too, I had to swap that over... input shaft on the ML gearbox IS bigger then the BE box I also found when my alignment tool was too small :lol: :lol:

Paul
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
M reg Xm 2.1 td auto exclusive S2 269k and rising
L reg XM V6 12v SEi auto .. Light project

A very sad...
1994 XM 2.1 d auto
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Post by HDI »

Stunned Monkey wrote:Variable vane turbos weren't about when the HDi was developed. it's definitely not a VVT. Boost control is achieved with a very clever vac-actuated (ECU controlled) wastegate.
Nothing particularly clever about the ecu controlled valve. Most turbo equipped cars from the modern era have ecu contolled pneumatic valves.
On petrol engines the air source is typically from the turbo compressor housing. Citroen on the HDI use a vacuum source from the engine driven vac pump.
Last edited by HDI on 09 Oct 2009, 10:56, edited 1 time in total.
Now using '00 Xantia LX HDI, pov spec :(
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Post by HDI »

Kowalski wrote: You're right that neither the HDI 90 nor HDI 110 have variable vane turbos, the later HDI 136 (both 2.0 and 2.2) have variable nozzle turbos which accomplish the same job in a slightly different way.
Variable nozzle is just another term for variable vane. The generic term for this type of turbo is variable geometry. Interestingly VGT's more often than not don't have a wastegate , boost control being achieved by the varaible vanes.
Now using '00 Xantia LX HDI, pov spec :(
My past Citroens :-
'00 Xantia SX HDI, now dead due to accident :(
'99 Xantia HDI 110 Exclusive, RIP :(
'97 Xantia TD SX
'96 Xantia TD LX
'96 ZX TD
'89 BX TD
'88 AX GT
'79 CX2400 Pallas (scrapped :( )
& a couple of Peugeots !
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Post by Kowalski »

HDI wrote:Variable nozzle is just another term for variable vane. The generic term for this type of turbo is variable geometry.
Citroen has a technology that is different to the standard variable vane turbo, I was referring to it has variable nozzle, but it would appear that both terms are used interchangeably.....

A variable vane turbo has a set of vanes around the outside of the turbine which move.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/vari ... levane.gif

The alternative is a nozzle over the turbine which slides along the same axis as the turbo's shaft.

http://jacky.wallet.free.fr/Jacky/Autom ... itroen.jpg
http://jacky.wallet.free.fr/Jacky/Autom ... le_tgv.htm

The site I've linked to is in french, so the correct name for the technology would have to be translated.....
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Post by HDI »

Cool ! So variable vane with a difference ! If this is unique to Citroen it would explain why I've never seen it. Do they manufacture it or is it produced for them by one of the Turbo manufacturers ?
Now using '00 Xantia LX HDI, pov spec :(
My past Citroens :-
'00 Xantia SX HDI, now dead due to accident :(
'99 Xantia HDI 110 Exclusive, RIP :(
'97 Xantia TD SX
'96 Xantia TD LX
'96 ZX TD
'89 BX TD
'88 AX GT
'79 CX2400 Pallas (scrapped :( )
& a couple of Peugeots !
citroenxm
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Location: Somewhere in North Wales, Anglesey
My Cars: M reg Xm S2 2.1td Auto Exclusive. 269k and rising
L reg XM S1 V6 12v Manual SEi
L 94 XM 2.1 TD auto total resto

2008 Peugeot 207 Sw 1.6 16v hdi. 217k and rising
2010 Peugeot 207 SW 1.6 8v HDi 161k and rising
x 70

Post by citroenxm »

HDI wrote:
Stunned Monkey wrote:Variable vane turbos weren't about when the HDi was developed. it's definitely not a VVT. Boost control is achieved with a very clever vac-actuated (ECU controlled) wastegate.
Nothing particularly clever about the ecu controlled valve. Most turbo equipped cars from the modern era have ecu contolled pneumatic valves.
On petrol engines the air source is typically from the turbo compressor housing. Citroen on the HDI use a vacuum source from the engine driven vac pump.
Well actually, yes and no... There is a Vaccum pump on the end of the Cam shaft, BUT however, this is connected FIRSTLY to two Electro Valves, and these ARE ECU controlled, so it knows when to OPEN the waste gate for the Optimum Set Boost PSI set in the ecu, and the other open the EGR valve by vaccum.. hence why your getting boost problem (I THINK) because one of the Electro valves is not working... either stuck open not allowing enough boost hence holding the Wastegate open, or holding the wastegate closed allowing ALL boost into the engine and triggering the ver boost valve.. Theres a Boost sensor so the ECU knows how much its getting on top of the Intercooler, passenger side..

Paul
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
M reg Xm 2.1 td auto exclusive S2 269k and rising
L reg XM V6 12v SEi auto .. Light project

A very sad...
1994 XM 2.1 d auto
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Post by Kowalski »

HDI wrote:Cool ! So variable vane with a difference ! If this is unique to Citroen it would explain why I've never seen it. Do they manufacture it or is it produced for them by one of the Turbo manufacturers ?
I know that the 2.2 HDI certainly got that type of turbo, so any car with the PSA 136BHP 2.2 HDI engine in it will get that type of turbo e.g. Peugeot 406.

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/105968797/ ... T1549P.jpg

According to the web, that turbo is a Garrett GT1549P.

The 2.0 HDI 136 gets a different turbo with a more conventional variable vane setup in the form of the Garrett GT1749V, which is also used on a number of other diesel engines, e.g. BMW 2.0, VW 1.9,
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