ATF

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Post by citrov6 »

got some of this from citroen today 'Total ATX'

but when I got home and opened it it was red dextron like not gold like what I had before, did they change the formula or did they give me the wrong stuff?
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Post by xantia_v6 »

Definitely the wrong stuff.
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Post by CitroJim »

Absolutely. That stuff is potential death to a 4HP20.

The only fluid for a 4HP20 (and AL4) is Esso LT 71141. As you say, golden and smelling vaguely of cat's pee.
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Post by citrov6 »

potential death? i was just googling it and people are saying it is the viscosity of total that is different from esso causing problems. be nice to see the spec sheets for these. i will keep googling, and get some esso tomorrow
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Post by CitroJim »

Don't quote me on this but I believe the main problem with Dexron when used in a 4HP20 is that it contains friction modifiers that have the effect of grinding down the friction material of the multi-plate clutches.

Dexron is designed specifically for 'boxes with band brakes and the 4HP20 is unusual in using multi-plate clutches exclusively. Strangely the AL4 does have a couple of brake bands in it but Esso LT is still specified for it.

Another thing with the 4HP20 is that it's oil level is critical and it uses calibrated drains in the overhead sump to regulate level vs temperature. A fluid with a different base viscosity and differing viscosity index will upset the oil level control.
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Post by Deanxm »

Hi all

The HP18 uses DII and it has the motorbike style clutch packs and one brake band, not sure what that proves but.....................
And i believe the total auto box oils are in very similar containers and most of the store guys dont know the difference between them anyway

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Post by citrov6 »

ah, thats a good explaination thanks Jim

I'm suprised they bother stocking 'Total' at all considering 'Esso' is recommended for all their boxes

I suppose it is the same with their modern 6 speed auto box's. would love one of those in mine
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Post by OzRX4 »

When speaking of Dexron and the ZF boxes, you need to state what particular Dexron you mean.
We have found(Alan S, rest his sole) and many others that confusion about DII vs DIII is the main cause of failures in these boxes. Alan and a mate dismantled one particular box and the valve body was clogged due to the incorrect DIII being used.

The Esso LT 71141 mentioned is a DII type compatible fluid from what I can ascertain from heaps of data I read when I had a Saab 9000. Saab recommend that fluid only in their power steering and older basic automatic trans from the 70/80's IIRC.
I am not sure about the UK but here in Aus when the DIII was released the auto shops all told prospective DII customers the III was an upgrade and better fluid for their trans :shock: I wonder how many are still selling auto bits and if they even now know about the problems they caused?
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Post by citrov6 »

i don't know. dexron VI is supposed to be the new magic stuff for the 6 speeds, but shops are telling everyone to stick to older stuff, DejaVu?
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Post by OzRX4 »

I wouldn't take anything a shop salesperson told me.
I once used 75w-90 LSD oil in the gearbox of my R17 and within 50km on the highway the box developed a menacing whine. It went away with a flush and a new dose of single grade 80w gear oil.
Best to go into any of those shops with a set product in mind and stick to it.
What brand is the 6sp box you speak of?

I have a list of ZF recomendations for lubricants for their gearboxes and transmissions but can't add it so here's the website I got the data from.

http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_Inter ... wnLangID=2

The current one I have is TE-ML 11
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Post by citrov6 »

i think its the latest line of transverse 6 speed boxes or fuel economy boxes , i read dexron 6 was made for it especially , then i think on some forums people were encouraged to use it in their old boxes that they were taking away older dexron away... only vaguely remember it since i didn't need the info really

also i was recommended redline gearbox oil for a turbo car which had a lot of torque by a shop who seemed to know what they were talking about, but then i read on some forums that it actually let their gearboxes fail. so i went for amsoil in that car and it worked well, i went on recommendations of products from people who actually use them with success rather than the guy trying to sell me them.

thats a comprehensive list you made, that is not a designation 'TE...' that i am familiar with though. i'll google it
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Post by OzRX4 »

I googled TF.... too, because I had that file on the comp here and I got that list.
I think it was a link form an American site who rebuild gearboxes for 5 and 7 series Beemers with the 4HP22 4sp auto(rear drives).They build them with 3500rpm stall converters for drags and I was considering a rebuilt V6 turbo for an auto 505 wagon at one stage so it'd need a good gearbox.
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Post by Sid_the_Squid »

Gearbox wise Id defiantly stick only to manufactures recommendations. So in the case of the ZF 4HP20 thats Esso LT71141. Incidentally theres a fair few BMW ZF gearboxes which also recommend exclusive use of Esso LT71141.
Also as has been said before, if your box says use Dexron 2, use Dexron 2, like wise I should imagine if its a Dex3 use Dex3.

The citroen part number for LT71141 is 9736.22.
On the bottle it say "Esso ATF 4HP20 AL4".

Any Citroen parts dept should carry some, its not cheap.
I am not sure about the UK but here in Aus when the DIII was released the auto shops all told prospective DII customers the III was an upgrade and better fluid for their trans
Thats what any general parts shop guy will tell you here. What Utter bunk, as you already mention Alan S posted some very good pieces about Dex 3 vs Dex 2, one on this very forum in one of the tips sections.
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Post by OzRX4 »

That's why I have always made sure I have a workshop and as much manufacturer information on every car I have ever owned. Call it anal, call it what you like but I'd bet any of us who do have saved several hundred in repair/replacements because we bothered to know.
I have a brother in law who's also a good mate from way back and I have finally convinced him to tell all the store managers below him NOT to recommend DII in place of DII else these days your stuffed with the amount of litigation around.
I haven't actaully read Alan's thread on DII here, will have to look it up later, after dinner.
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Post by Sid_the_Squid »

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=14841
Here is the 'local' one.

This one is quite interesting, gets a bit off topic towards the end though.
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25121

There may be some more linked in the second link, not got the immediate time to check now.
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