Is it possible to soften the ride on my 98 1.9TD. The car is newly aquired with 59k on the clock. I've put new [not regassed] spheres on the corners which are reputed to be genuine Citroen parts but the ride is very firm, remeniscent of a granada scorpio I once owned. I don't believe that there is a problem with the Struts or Swing Arms. Is it possible to fit say larger volume spheres with a bigger bore for the damping. I have in mind a test drive of an N reg. 2L auto petrol many years ago where the analagy 'magic carpet' was truly appropriate. I only plod around so Im quite happy to trade off roadholding under extreme driving for a generally softer ride and I can always regress the spheres before I sell the car on. It has been suggested that spheres for a non turbo would soften the ride but I suspect that it would still not be soft enough, bnever ridden in a non turbo though.
Thanks.
xantia softer ride possible ?
Moderator: RichardW
There are different spheres for different Xantia models, so you can try some other type. If the ride is firm, you can get the spheres with higher pressure and lower damping.
Damper in the sphere consists of 9 bores, 1 is visible, other (much bigger) are covered with thin metal discs, opening under pressure. Thicker the discs covering that bores, higher the damping. Central bore is not very important - it controls only very slow vertical movements, when other bores are closed.
I fitted GS spheres to my BX, with lower damping, blown to slightly higher pressure also, and the ride is much better.
Damper in the sphere consists of 9 bores, 1 is visible, other (much bigger) are covered with thin metal discs, opening under pressure. Thicker the discs covering that bores, higher the damping. Central bore is not very important - it controls only very slow vertical movements, when other bores are closed.
I fitted GS spheres to my BX, with lower damping, blown to slightly higher pressure also, and the ride is much better.
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blueboy2001
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I've had 40Bar Spheres put on my 93 1.9TD - the reccomended ones are 30 bar for the TD and 2.0 petrol, 40 are for the 1.9D and 1.8 petrol. Ride is very smooth and it soaks up the bumps really well.
Only reason I can think they put lower pressure in the quicker cars is for a stiffer high speed ride. That said, I never had any problems and I drive like a lunatic according to my dad!
If you want a really smooth, cosseting ride then I recently found the perfect fix - I bought a new C5
Only reason I can think they put lower pressure in the quicker cars is for a stiffer high speed ride. That said, I never had any problems and I drive like a lunatic according to my dad!
If you want a really smooth, cosseting ride then I recently found the perfect fix - I bought a new C5
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mark_sp</i>
Thanks to both of you for your replies. Thinking back to a BX19 petrol I used to own that car had a superb ride and I think that the spheres on the front of that car also had a larger volune at 500cc.
Mark
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Mark,
If you do this, can you please post the results and the spheres you have used?
Thanks
JohnW
Thanks to both of you for your replies. Thinking back to a BX19 petrol I used to own that car had a superb ride and I think that the spheres on the front of that car also had a larger volune at 500cc.
Mark
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Mark,
If you do this, can you please post the results and the spheres you have used?
Thanks
JohnW
Johnw
Yes I'll post the results if I do it but it won't be for a while as I only bought the car 3 weeks ago and the first thing I did was to have the spheres replaced as the front of the car was bouncing and the rear felt like it had too little travel. I had 'standard' spheres fitted at the corners by my local independant specialist who assures me they are new genuine Citroen parts. This has cured the bounce but the ride is now so firm it doesn't feel like a Citroen anymore. Interestingly there is now less travel in the rear of the car than when it was on its old spheres. The car now rides like a sports saloon, very firm and with little travel at the corners, it reminds me of a Granada Scorpio I once owned. It's all very dissapointing, I regret not ordering and fitting the spheres myself. I have had vague warnings from a couple of people that this will not be a good idea, along the lines that you can fit any-old sphere to a bx but the same is not true of the xantia, however they have not been able to give any detail. one thing that did occur to me is that as it would be a suspension modification I'd have to inform my insurers. Anyway I will try it some time during the summer.
Yes I'll post the results if I do it but it won't be for a while as I only bought the car 3 weeks ago and the first thing I did was to have the spheres replaced as the front of the car was bouncing and the rear felt like it had too little travel. I had 'standard' spheres fitted at the corners by my local independant specialist who assures me they are new genuine Citroen parts. This has cured the bounce but the ride is now so firm it doesn't feel like a Citroen anymore. Interestingly there is now less travel in the rear of the car than when it was on its old spheres. The car now rides like a sports saloon, very firm and with little travel at the corners, it reminds me of a Granada Scorpio I once owned. It's all very dissapointing, I regret not ordering and fitting the spheres myself. I have had vague warnings from a couple of people that this will not be a good idea, along the lines that you can fit any-old sphere to a bx but the same is not true of the xantia, however they have not been able to give any detail. one thing that did occur to me is that as it would be a suspension modification I'd have to inform my insurers. Anyway I will try it some time during the summer.
Mark,
I know nowt about Xantias so I'll slip that disclaimer in right from the start, but spheres & Cit hydraulics in general apart from hydractive I don't think are all that different, so I'd be inclined to go back to the start.
I can't believe that a Xantia would or should ride like a tin spring car (sorry ZX owners)[:D]so for mine, somethings not right, particularly when you say it had more travel on the old spheres than the new.
I would suspect (a) You've been sold a couple of old stock spheres that have gone rotten inside & are no good.
(b) Been fitted with a set of wrong spheres (ie) Estate rears fitted to the front as one possibility
(c) Someone has been screwing around with the height adjustment & set the height correctors wrong.
(d) There is some mechanical tightness in struts and/or arms.
My guess is suggestions (a) (c) & (d) but I'd check all four before I went any further.
Ideally, if you could drive someone elses car to compare the ride, then you would know if it is definitely a fault or the nature of the beast (which I doubt.)
Alan S
I know nowt about Xantias so I'll slip that disclaimer in right from the start, but spheres & Cit hydraulics in general apart from hydractive I don't think are all that different, so I'd be inclined to go back to the start.
I can't believe that a Xantia would or should ride like a tin spring car (sorry ZX owners)[:D]so for mine, somethings not right, particularly when you say it had more travel on the old spheres than the new.
I would suspect (a) You've been sold a couple of old stock spheres that have gone rotten inside & are no good.
(b) Been fitted with a set of wrong spheres (ie) Estate rears fitted to the front as one possibility
(c) Someone has been screwing around with the height adjustment & set the height correctors wrong.
(d) There is some mechanical tightness in struts and/or arms.
My guess is suggestions (a) (c) & (d) but I'd check all four before I went any further.
Ideally, if you could drive someone elses car to compare the ride, then you would know if it is definitely a fault or the nature of the beast (which I doubt.)
Alan S
Strange. Is your car hydractive or non-hydractive? It sounds like you have hydractive spheres fitted. Well, rear of Xantia I tested a while ago dived 7-8 cm under my weight (70 kg), sitting on the bumper, and spheres were about 2 years old (40 bar). With new spheres it should be even more. On the other side, on hydractive Xantia in hard mode (with engine off) there's almost no dive at all under my weight, maybe 1 cm or so. Maybe you have wrong spheres?
Thanks for the replies chaps. The car is not Hydractive. With the engine running and the car on level ground if I sit on the lip of the boot the car drops 4cm. when I get off the car rises to its normal ride height, it does not however rise past its normal ride height and then drop, as my tzd bx does. At the front if I push down with all my weight over a wheel the car drops 2cm. When the pressure is released the front does rise a little past its normal ride height and then drop back. I've had a look at the spheres and the front are marked 'XT AU 2.0I 55 BAR SP857 03/03', the rears are the same except they say 30 BAR 12/02. Someone made the point that I may not know what the car should ride like and this is valid. I drove a BX19 petrol for many years and I thought the quality of the ride on that car could not be bettered. In 1997 I test drove an 'N' reg 2L petrol Xantia auto which had done 60K miles. The quality of the ride on that car was superb, it made the BX feel like a go-kart and left a lasting impression on me. I've also driven an XM 2L petrol with HA1 [the less said the better I think] and still own a BX tzd estate and the quality of ride on that car with 18 month old spheres is far softer that the Xantia. The one car that I need to have driven and have not is another good Xantia TD.
mark
mark
Mark,
I've checked up on the sphere table to see if you have the right spheres so I'll try to explain this so we both don't get lost in the process. What I'll do is show the figures you have, then show what the table suggests in brackets followed by comments.
Front: AV 2.01 (?) - 55bar SP57 (?) The 55 bar is OK but what are the others I wonder?
(Table shows) Front 400/55/1.5
(ie) 400 = 400cc, sphere capacity. 55 = 55bar pressure. 1.5 is damper size (the hole in the "LHM" end of the sphere
Rear: 30bar
(Table shows) Rear 400/30/1.0
(ie) 400 = same physical size & capacity as front 30 = 30bar pressure. 1.0 damper hole size.
The numbers you quoted seem to indicate that possibly these are correct spheres BUT, they do not quote the damper size which is extremely critical to the ride quality.
If you were to remove a sphere, the bore size is usually stamped alongside the actual bore hole on the base of the sphere (the bit that screws into the strut or cylinder.)
If upon inspection, this damper size is shown to be Front - 0.6 (instead of 1.5) and/or rear 0.5 (instead of 1.0) then you've found your problem.....the car has been fitted with hydractive spheres & would ride like a bullock dray.
The reason I say this, is that anyone who has ever ridden in a CX will always comment on the "riding on air" feel even in comparison to anything from a BX onwards; the damper sizes for a CX are 500/75/1.90 and 500/40/1.25 F & R respectively and before you ask, no you can't fit CX spheres to your Xantia, it would make you sea sick[:D][xx(]
So I would suggest that you check that damper size & my bet is that is where the problem lies; wrong spheres fitted. Then all you have to do is convince whoever sold them to you admit to his mistake[:(!]
Alan S
P.S. The 03/03 & 12/02 is the D.O.M. (Date of Manufacture.)
I've checked up on the sphere table to see if you have the right spheres so I'll try to explain this so we both don't get lost in the process. What I'll do is show the figures you have, then show what the table suggests in brackets followed by comments.
Front: AV 2.01 (?) - 55bar SP57 (?) The 55 bar is OK but what are the others I wonder?
(Table shows) Front 400/55/1.5
(ie) 400 = 400cc, sphere capacity. 55 = 55bar pressure. 1.5 is damper size (the hole in the "LHM" end of the sphere
Rear: 30bar
(Table shows) Rear 400/30/1.0
(ie) 400 = same physical size & capacity as front 30 = 30bar pressure. 1.0 damper hole size.
The numbers you quoted seem to indicate that possibly these are correct spheres BUT, they do not quote the damper size which is extremely critical to the ride quality.
If you were to remove a sphere, the bore size is usually stamped alongside the actual bore hole on the base of the sphere (the bit that screws into the strut or cylinder.)
If upon inspection, this damper size is shown to be Front - 0.6 (instead of 1.5) and/or rear 0.5 (instead of 1.0) then you've found your problem.....the car has been fitted with hydractive spheres & would ride like a bullock dray.
The reason I say this, is that anyone who has ever ridden in a CX will always comment on the "riding on air" feel even in comparison to anything from a BX onwards; the damper sizes for a CX are 500/75/1.90 and 500/40/1.25 F & R respectively and before you ask, no you can't fit CX spheres to your Xantia, it would make you sea sick[:D][xx(]
So I would suggest that you check that damper size & my bet is that is where the problem lies; wrong spheres fitted. Then all you have to do is convince whoever sold them to you admit to his mistake[:(!]
Alan S
P.S. The 03/03 & 12/02 is the D.O.M. (Date of Manufacture.)
Mark_SP:
Well, my father's sporty Alfa 156 dives 1.5 cm on the front and 3 cm on the rear under my weight. On Golf IV it's 2 cm on the front, 2.5 cm on the rear. So, although you didn't write you weight, it seems that your Xantia doesn't have much softer 'springs' than conventional cars. Marks on spheres are also suspicious. Genuine citroen spheres are marked only with a number code (at least they were on Xantias I tested). For non-hydractive Xantia, from '96 on, it can be:
front: 96178589, 96194444 (400 ccm, 55 bar) or 96199318 (450 ccm, 50 bar)
rear: 96238977 or 96293023 (400 ccm, 30 bar)
So, maybe something's really wrong with spheres (pressure too low, or damping too high). I would take one front sphere off and compare the damper with that on genuine sphere in some citroen shop (not only central bore, but also steel disc thickness around it, which is even more important - see the topic Xantia suspension again).
Mark_I:
I presented a formula in one topic around New Year, but unfortunately, didn't have the opportunity to test it on a car with new spheres. It gave me the same results as found in one spreadsheet for C5, taken from Julian Marsh site, but in praxis, all Xantias I tested had much stiffer suspension than they should have according to that formula. Than, I did calculations on my BX other way, observing changes of LHM level in different positions, but that gave me also significantly different results. So I gave up (for now).
Anyway, I think that in your case it should be at least 3-4 cm on the front (depending on engine - if weight is higher, same spheres are 'stiffer') and at least 6-7 cm on the rear with brand new spheres. But it's only my prediction, don't rely on it. I'll be glad if someone with new genuine spheres would measure this - it would take only a minute, and would be useful for others.
Well, my father's sporty Alfa 156 dives 1.5 cm on the front and 3 cm on the rear under my weight. On Golf IV it's 2 cm on the front, 2.5 cm on the rear. So, although you didn't write you weight, it seems that your Xantia doesn't have much softer 'springs' than conventional cars. Marks on spheres are also suspicious. Genuine citroen spheres are marked only with a number code (at least they were on Xantias I tested). For non-hydractive Xantia, from '96 on, it can be:
front: 96178589, 96194444 (400 ccm, 55 bar) or 96199318 (450 ccm, 50 bar)
rear: 96238977 or 96293023 (400 ccm, 30 bar)
So, maybe something's really wrong with spheres (pressure too low, or damping too high). I would take one front sphere off and compare the damper with that on genuine sphere in some citroen shop (not only central bore, but also steel disc thickness around it, which is even more important - see the topic Xantia suspension again).
Mark_I:
I presented a formula in one topic around New Year, but unfortunately, didn't have the opportunity to test it on a car with new spheres. It gave me the same results as found in one spreadsheet for C5, taken from Julian Marsh site, but in praxis, all Xantias I tested had much stiffer suspension than they should have according to that formula. Than, I did calculations on my BX other way, observing changes of LHM level in different positions, but that gave me also significantly different results. So I gave up (for now).
Anyway, I think that in your case it should be at least 3-4 cm on the front (depending on engine - if weight is higher, same spheres are 'stiffer') and at least 6-7 cm on the rear with brand new spheres. But it's only my prediction, don't rely on it. I'll be glad if someone with new genuine spheres would measure this - it would take only a minute, and would be useful for others.
All
Thanks to everyone who has replied so far. This topic appears to have generated more interest than I expected. What I intend to do is to pull a front sphere and check to see if the bore size detail is revealed. I'm away for a few days so it won't be until the weekend after next but I'll post my findings then. I persobally believe that the cause of the problem is going to be entirely down to the spheres although maybe I also have an unrealistic expectation for the ride quality.
Mark_sp
Thanks to everyone who has replied so far. This topic appears to have generated more interest than I expected. What I intend to do is to pull a front sphere and check to see if the bore size detail is revealed. I'm away for a few days so it won't be until the weekend after next but I'll post my findings then. I persobally believe that the cause of the problem is going to be entirely down to the spheres although maybe I also have an unrealistic expectation for the ride quality.
Mark_sp
All
Here are my results as promised. First I had to revisit the independant specialist that supplied the spheres on another matter. While there I mentioned the ride was firmer than expected and he road tested the car. His conclusion was that the ride was as he would expect it to be and that this model rides firmer than earlier ones.
Still dissatisfied with the ride I bit the bullit and ordered a set of spheres from AS for the non-turbo model. Because the results were not guaranteed and I'm rapidly running out of money I opted for reconditioned ones.
I fitted them this evening and the results were initially promising with the sit on lip of boot test causing the car to drop 8cm [previously 4cm] however the push down front wing test only caused a 3cm drop [previously 2cm]. On road testing the car there is only a very slight improvement [softening] in the ride quality, I have to admit to being quite dissapointed. I see no point in driving a Citroen if it rides like a Ford and will probably sell the car at the end of the summer and drop back to my BX TZD Estate.
Alans suggested that there would be a bore size revealed when the old [only 5 weeks] spheres were pulled, unfortunately there were no markings revealed on any of the spheres.
One other point the seals supplied with the recon spheres were a joke, looked like elastic bands, I re-used the old ones [only 5 weeks old]
Sorry it's not better news.
mark_sp
Here are my results as promised. First I had to revisit the independant specialist that supplied the spheres on another matter. While there I mentioned the ride was firmer than expected and he road tested the car. His conclusion was that the ride was as he would expect it to be and that this model rides firmer than earlier ones.
Still dissatisfied with the ride I bit the bullit and ordered a set of spheres from AS for the non-turbo model. Because the results were not guaranteed and I'm rapidly running out of money I opted for reconditioned ones.
I fitted them this evening and the results were initially promising with the sit on lip of boot test causing the car to drop 8cm [previously 4cm] however the push down front wing test only caused a 3cm drop [previously 2cm]. On road testing the car there is only a very slight improvement [softening] in the ride quality, I have to admit to being quite dissapointed. I see no point in driving a Citroen if it rides like a Ford and will probably sell the car at the end of the summer and drop back to my BX TZD Estate.
Alans suggested that there would be a bore size revealed when the old [only 5 weeks] spheres were pulled, unfortunately there were no markings revealed on any of the spheres.
One other point the seals supplied with the recon spheres were a joke, looked like elastic bands, I re-used the old ones [only 5 weeks old]
Sorry it's not better news.
mark_sp