worth a look at - Lucas (read Delphi) EPIC injection system

lolingram · Post by **lolingram** » 08 Aug 2009, 10:56

http://www.dieselbob.co.uk/goodbad.asp

What gives the 2.1 TD engine a bad name...

Post by **Paul-R** » 08 Aug 2009, 11:06

I'm surprised that they class the 2.5 Transit engne as a goodun. You could hear them from a mile away and I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't the cause of many a case of industrial deafness.

Post by **CitroJim** » 08 Aug 2009, 11:11

"I refuse to make any comment whatsoever...."

Said a member of the 2.1TD fan club....

You all know my thoughts on the 2.1TD and the EPIC in particular so we'll leave it at that

lolingram · Post by **lolingram** » 08 Aug 2009, 11:38

"I refuse to make any comment whatsoever...."

Said a member of the 2.1TD fan club....

You all know my thoughts on the 2.1TD and the EPIC in particular so we'll leave it at that Silenced
_________________
Jim

The 2.1 12V TD is, as Jim has stated more than once, arguably the most efficient ID diesel architecture that has been produced to date by any manufacturer. The fact that the 2.1TD EPIC fed engine gives quite remarkable economy - especially in an XM - is the living proof. Even with the much simpler Bosch injection, the economy is quite surprising on a long run - can exceed 40mpg with ease...

Much credit must go to Sir Harry Ricardo of course.

Post by **CitroJim** » 08 Aug 2009, 11:49

On the subject of EPIC pumps, I'm hoping soon to acquire a duff one to be able to learn all about them and hopefully find ways of fixing them

No promises on that score though

The majority of EPIC problems, as with ay diesel system, comes down to air in the end. They're stupidly sensitive to air and excel even a Bosch in this respect

lolingram · Post by **lolingram** » 09 Aug 2009, 15:40

The majority of EPIC problems, as with ay diesel system, comes down to air in the end. They're stupidly sensitive to air and excel even a Bosch in this respec

In researching the EPIC epic (sorry!), it is clear that this electro-mechanical injection system is a marvel of engineering over design. As a stop-gap to surpass pollution criteria until fully electronic Common Rail became available, it has to be said that it achieved the results. That it often gives headaches in every day use is really not too surprising. Somehow, I could never envisage BOSCH being tempted down into this minefield... I wonder how the BOSCH electro-mechanical injection of the period (say '93 - '97), managed to keep ahead?

Post by **CitroJim** » 10 Aug 2009, 08:03

lolingram wrote: I could never envisage BOSCH being tempted down into this minefield... I wonder how the BOSCH electro-mechanical injection of the period (say '93 - '97), managed to keep ahead?

They did indeed go there Lol. The Bosch pump on the XM 2.5 was an early member of the ilk but the later Bosch that replicated almost exactly what the EPIC did was a right horror. If memory serves, it was the Bosch VP37 (or VP44) and fitted to loads of unfortunate victims in the 90s. It makes the EPIC look like a paragon of reliability. I'm not 100% clear what the issues were on the VP37 but I have an idea the ECU was built into the pump and it used the same internal design as the Lucas which made it totrally unsitable for veg. use. Use veg and they'd die almost straight away. Rumour has it they died plenty fast enough running on diesel and were almost impossible to repair.

This general "downer" on Lucas pumps is unjustified. It's a bit like the "downer" that alwas existed for Rover cars. It's British so it must be rubbish and so on

Bosch, being German, they are of course, far superior, like any old tat VW make. Bosch pumps (excepting the VP20 maybe) are not that wonderful. A Lucas pump, in my opinion, has the edge in starting, emissions and economy. They leak but are a cinch to put right (EPIC excepted) and go on and on for ever. That they can't survive on veg. is neither here nor there.

The EPIC is fine provided it is always fed good quality, clean diesel, filters are changed regularly and the system is kept air-tight.

lolingram · Post by **lolingram** » 10 Aug 2009, 12:05

This general "downer" on Lucas pumps is unjustified. It's a bit like the "downer" that alwas existed for Rover cars. It's British so it must be rubbish and so on Twisted Evil Bosch, being German, they are of course, far superior, like any old tat VW make. Bosch pumps (excepting the VP20 maybe) are not that wonderful. A Lucas pump, in my opinion, has the edge in starting, emissions and economy. They leak but are a cinch to put right (EPIC excepted) and go on and on for ever. That they can't survive on veg. is neither here nor there.

Interesting read Jim. I remember the Lucas forerunner - the CAV which certainly did sterling service in the 60s. My last remark with regard to the Bosch pump (as on my 2.1TD auto), is meant to relate as to how this non-fly-by wire system kept to the pollution norms in the years 94 - 9x, when other XMs were fitted with EPIC systems?

Post by **CitroJim** » 10 Aug 2009, 12:35

lolingram wrote:My last remark with regard to the Bosch pump (as on my 2.1TD auto), is meant to relate as to how this non-fly-by wire system kept to the pollution norms in the years 94 - 9x, when other XMs were fitted with EPIC systems?

Sorry Lol, got the wrong end of the stick a bit there

That's a good point. Is the Bosch on your 2.1TD Auto a fully mechanical VP20 or the semi-electronic AS3? The AS3 got itself quite clean by keeping precise electronic control of the timing only whreas in the VP20, which is identical in all other respects, timing advance was carried out mechanically based on fuel pressure and speed. The AS3 electronic timing, EGR and a CAT were required for the engine to meet the EURO emission regulations of the day.

Interestingly, the Lucas DPC pump managed to meet the needs of the legislation without resorting to electronic control. It remained fully mechanical up to the end of XUD (and DW8) engine production; the only electrical bits on it were the immobiliser and a cold advance solenoid.

So, from that it can be assumed that the fully mechanical Bosch could not cut the mustard whilst the good old Lucas DPC, that started life on a tractor, could

Although not very scientific, it is telling to stand behind a Bosch-fed XUD and then a Lucas-fed XUD. The Lucas car is less smelly. A VP20 fed XUD is smellier again than an AS3 fed engine.

lolingram · Post by **lolingram** » 10 Aug 2009, 14:08

Sorry Lol, got the wrong end of the stick a bit there Embarassed That's a good point. Is the Bosch on your 2.1TD Auto a fully mechanical VP20 or the semi-electronic AS3? The AS3 got itself quite clean by keeping precise electronic control of the timing only whreas in the VP20, which is identical in all other respects, timing advance was carried out mechanically based on fuel pressure and speed. The AS3 electronic timing, EGR and a CAT were required for the engine to meet the EURO emission regulations of the day.

Well, mine is a 97 model (Aug 96reg), and only one (suspension?) LSIC in the black container box - also the capsule style cold tickover advancement. Certainly EGR equipped (I just dissed it!), I am wondering how else to identify which system mine possesses?

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 11 Aug 2009, 22:12

lolingram wrote:
Sorry Lol, got the wrong end of the stick a bit there Embarassed That's a good point. Is the Bosch on your 2.1TD Auto a fully mechanical VP20 or the semi-electronic AS3? The AS3 got itself quite clean by keeping precise electronic control of the timing only whreas in the VP20, which is identical in all other respects, timing advance was carried out mechanically based on fuel pressure and speed. The AS3 electronic timing, EGR and a CAT were required for the engine to meet the EURO emission regulations of the day.
Well, mine is a 97 model (Aug 96reg), and only one (suspension?) LSIC in the black container box - also the capsule style cold tickover advancement. Certainly EGR equipped (I just dissed it!), I am wondering how else to identify which system mine possesses?

Hi Lol

As far as I am aware Its a fully mechanical VP20 but with the electric imobiliser bit on the back, never did work out how that worked at a pump level was always a bit worried that if the keypad numbers got screwed it might be new pump time.

It doesn't and never did have a cat.

Something I read somewhere made me think that the 2.1 Auto's never were equipped with EPIC however i am prepared to be corrected on that.
Glad to hear that it got you home o.k.

Cachaciero.

lolingram · Post by **lolingram** » 12 Aug 2009, 08:10

Hi Lol

As far as I am aware Its a fully mechanical VP20 but with the electric imobiliser bit on the back, never did work out how that worked at a pump level was always a bit worried that if the keypad numbers got screwed it might be new pump time. Sad

It doesn't and never did have a cat.

Something I read somewhere made me think that the 2.1 Auto's never were equipped with EPIC however i am prepared to be corrected on that.
Glad to hear that it got you home o.k.

Cheers T.

Passed UK MOT with flying colours... arrived here after 1000miles of trouble-free (other than the driver's door motor this time!). Smoke test was WAY down.

Nice car.

Owned an L reg 2.1TD auto XM which was EPIC... so curiouser and curiouser.

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 12 Aug 2009, 10:22

lolingram wrote:

Cheers T.

Passed UK MOT with flying colours... arrived here after 1000miles of trouble-free (other than the driver's door motor this time!). Smoke test was WAY down.

Nice car.

Owned an L reg 2.1TD auto XM which was EPIC... so curiouser and curiouser.

Weird I had an N reg 2.1TD that also was BOSCH.

Passed MOT? I have to say I was a little surprised but as I watched you disappear down the road I was thinking that I should have persevered a bit more with that one, my loss your gain

Drivers door, yes I had that stick down once early last year. I had to repair the winder shortly after I purchased it, usual problem broken cable, replaced cables, as this has the anti pinch mechanism I wondered if the cable tension was a bit high but as I never had it happen again forgot about it.

I note that you have been asking about glowplugs if that is with the XM in view it had a new set about 18 months ago.

T

lolingram · Post by **lolingram** » 12 Aug 2009, 10:33

I note that you have been asking about glowplugs if that is with the XM in view it had a new set about 18 months ago.

T

After the flood, or before?

The air cleaner certainly showed some signs of water, BUT, the filter sandwich was still 100% intact, so no large globules could have got through after traversing the turbo and intercooler IMHO... down here current temps are 34ºC+. No startup smoke until ambiant temp is below 20ºC. Reckon it is a poorly functiong plug, as compressions are 100%, and fuel consumption excellent with no oil consumption either...

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 13 Aug 2009, 17:59

lolingram wrote:
After the flood, or before?

The air cleaner certainly showed some signs of water, BUT, the filter sandwich was still 100% intact, so no large globules could have got through after traversing the turbo and intercooler IMHO... down here current temps are 34ºC+. No startup smoke until ambiant temp is below 20ºC. Reckon it is a poorly functiong plug, as compressions are 100%, and fuel consumption excellent with no oil consumption either...

Before.

T