Maybe I have not explained myself for you to understand.......
When I was working in the industry, RETIRED now, so no more A/C...
I did NOT use one of these automatic machines, when I first did auto A/C these machines where NOT available in the UK, mind you it was only imported american and Rolls Royce cars that had A/C ....yes that far back
My point is that since these machines have been available people (with the full 1 day training) have suddenly become Auto A/C engineers !!!!!!!
hence £45 for a re-gas, now you cannot blame a lot of these guys because their boss said "do this course, use this machine or ........." so they do it, so we end up with lots of cock-ups.
My point with your posts.... miss-leading info....
You can't charge the system from the "high" side fully,
Yes you can, charge by weight.
If the air-con wasn't switched on, he wouldn't have been able to draw any gas in the suction side
You do NOT need the A/C running to charge system,see above.
you need to bridge the pressure switch, this will allow the compressor to start and draw refrigerant in.
No you don't, the refrigerant left in the system should be reclaimed (you do NOT know what refrigerant is in the system or if there is any air/moisture) then you should evacuate, check to see if vacuum holds before recharging.
If you run the compressor to pull refrigerant in and the system has a leak on the low side it will draw air in which means moisture enters system as well....ooops!!!
I know very little about this stuff though, so don't take my word for to much
Your words NOT mine.
What you do for yourself and your mates is fine (I fully understand you are doing your best) only you or your mates may have a problem and I am sure you would sort it, the problem (IMHO) is when you tell post here (and I know you are trying to help) if people in the UK followed what you suggest and then had a problem would you be on your way over from Ausse to sort it? I only ask that you are careful with what you post.
If you buy these top-up cans from the likes of H*****ds etc and charge your A/C you do not know what refrigerant is in your system unless you have had the system evacuated and re-charged since you bought it as you can see Shanne uses hr12 which my or may not mix with what is in your system, in the UK you could have R12, R134a, R413a, Care30, R409a or maybe a mixture of them.........
This is from the U.S. Enviromental Protection Agency ...applies to any A/C system.
Choosing and Using Alternative Refrigerants for Motor Vehicle Air Conditioning
Ozone Protection Hotline (800) 296-1996
December 17, 2008
Changes from the September 28, 2006, version: added two refrigerants; other editorial changes.
Background
Scientists worldwide have concluded that CFC-12 and other chlorofluorocarbons deplete the ozone layer. As a result, over 190 countries have signed a treaty, called the Montreal Protocol, to protect the earth's ozone layer. In the US, the Protocol is implemented by the Clean Air Act, and regulations issued under the Act ended the production of CFC-12 for air conditioning and refrigeration uses on December 31, 1995.
CFC-12 (also known by the trade name Freon) was widely used in air conditioners for automobiles and trucks for over 30 years. While new vehicles no longer use CFC-12, most vehicles built before 1994 still require its use for servicing. As a result, 30 million cars or more may need conversions to use an alternative refrigerant should the air conditioning develop a leak after CFC-12 is no longer available.
other relevant fact sheets
Significant New Alternatives Policy (SNAP)
In 1994, EPA established the SNAP Program to review alternatives to ozone-depleting substances like CFC-12. Under the authority of the 1990 Clean Air Act (CAA), EPA examines new substitutes for their ozone-depleting, global warming, flammability, and toxicity characteristics. EPA has determined that several refrigerants are acceptable for use as CFC-12 replacements in motor vehicle air conditioning systems, subject to certain use conditions. This fact sheet lists the use conditions in detail and provides information about the current crop of refrigerants.
It is important to understand the meaning of "acceptable subject to use conditions." EPA believes such refrigerants, when used in accordance with the conditions, are safer for human health and the environment than CFC-12. This designation does not mean that the refrigerant will work in any specific system, nor does it mean that the refrigerant is perfectly safe regardless of how it is used. Finally, note that EPA does not approve or endorse any one refrigerant that is acceptable subject to use conditions over others also in that category.
Note also that EPA does not test refrigerants under the SNAP process. Rather, we review information submitted to us by manufacturers and various independent testing laboratories. Therefore, it is important to discuss any new refrigerant with your vehicle dealer and shop technician before deciding to use it, and in particular to determine what effect using a new refrigerant will have on your warranty. Before choosing a new refrigerant, you should also consider whether it is readily and widely available, and your technician should consider the cost of buying recovery equipment for blends or recovery/recycling equipment for HFC-134a. Additional considerations about purchasing CFC-12 substitutes can be found in EPA's fact sheet titled "Questions to Ask Before You Purchase an Alternative Refrigerant."
Definition of "Motor Vehicle Air Conditioning"
Under the SNAP program, the motor vehicle air conditioning (MVAC) end-use includes all forms of air conditioning that provide cooling to the passenger compartments in moving vehicles. This definition includes both MVACs, defined under the section 609 regulations at 40 CFR 82.32, and MVAC-like equipment, defined under the section 608 regulations at 40 CFR 82.152. EPA regulations issued under sections 608 and 609 of the Clean Air Act distinguish between MVACs and MVAC-like equipment for purposes of refrigerant recycling and handling. EPA includes both in the SNAP MVAC end-use and has relied on this definition since the original SNAP rule of March 18, 1994 (59 FR 13044). All use conditions, unacceptability findings, and other regulatory actions for this end-use apply equally to on-road vehicles, such as automobiles and trucks, and to off-road vehicles, such as tractors, combines, construction, mining equipment, boats, planes, and trains.
Misleading Use of "Drop-in" to Describe Refrigerants
Many companies use the term "drop-in" to mean that a substitute refrigerant will perform identically to CFC-12, that no modifications need to be made to the system, and that the alternative can be used alone or mixed with CFC-12. However, EPA believes the term confuses and obscures several important regulatory and technical points. First, charging one refrigerant into a system before extracting the old refrigerant is a violation of the SNAP use conditions and is, therefore, illegal. Second, certain components may be required by law, such as hoses and compressor shutoff switches. If these components are not present, they must be installed. See the section below on use conditions for more information on these points. Third, it is impossible to test a refrigerant in the thousands of air conditioning systems in existence to demonstrate identical performance. In addition, system performance is strongly affected by outside temperature, humidity, driving conditions, etc., and it is impossible to ensure equal performance under all of these conditions. Finally, it is very difficult to demonstrate that system components will last as long as they would have if CFC-12 were used. For all of these reasons, EPA does not use the term "drop-in" to describe any alternative refrigerant.
Use Conditions
Under the SNAP rule, each new refrigerant must be used in accordance with the conditions listed below. If you choose to use an alternative, make sure the service shop meets these requirements and that it has dedicated recovery equipment for blends or recovery/recycling equipment for HFC-134a.
UNIQUE FITTINGS:
Each new refrigerant must be used with a unique set of fittings to prevent the accidental mixing of different refrigerants. These fittings are attachment points on the car itself, on all recovery and recycling equipment, on can taps and other charging equipment, and on all refrigerant containers. If the car is being retrofitted, any service fittings not converted to the new refrigerant must be permanently disabled. Unique fittings help protect the consumer by ensuring that only one type of refrigerant is used in each car. They also help protect the purity of the recycled supply of CFC-12, which means it will last longer, so fewer retrofits will be necessary nationwide. The list of fittings is available in an EPA fact sheet titled "Fitting Sizes and Label Colors for Motor Vehicle Refrigerants."
Applicability to Manifold Gauges and Refrigerant Identifiers
Manifold gauges allow technicians to diagnose system problems and to charge, recover, and/or recycle refrigerant. A standard fitting may be used at the end of the hoses attached to the manifold gauges, but unique fittings must be permanently attached at the ends of the hoses that attach to vehicle air conditioning systems and recovery or recycling equipment. Similarly, refrigerant identifiers may be used with multiple refrigerants. The connection between the identifier or similar service equipment and the service hose may be standardized and work with multiple hoses. For each refrigerant, however, the user must attach a hose to the identifier that has a fitting unique to that refrigerant permanently attached to the end going to the vehicle. Adapters for one refrigerant may not be attached to end 2 and then removed and replaced with the fitting for a different refrigerant. The guiding principle is that once attached to a hose, the fitting is permanent and is not removed.
LABELS:
Whether a car is originally designed to use a new refrigerant or is retrofitted, the technician must apply a detailed label giving specific information about the alternative. The label's background color is chosen by the manufacturer to be unique, and the label colors for each refrigerant are listed in an EPA fact sheet titled "Fitting Sizes and Label Colors for Motor Vehicle Refrigerants." The label shows:
the name and address of the technician and the company performing the retrofit;
the date of the retrofit;
the trade name, charge amount, and, when applicable, the ASHRAE numerical designation of the refrigerant;
the type, manufacturer, and amount of lubricant used; and
if the refrigerant is or contains an ozone-depleting substance, the phrase "ozone depleter"
This label covers up information about the old refrigerant, and provides valuable details on the alternative and how it was used. It also tells the owner who performed the retrofit.
REMOVE ORIGINAL REFRIGERANT:
The original CFC-12 must be removed from the system prior to charging with the new refrigerant. This procedure will prevent the contamination of one refrigerant with another. Refrigerants mixed within a system probably won't work and could damage the system. As mentioned above, this requirement means that no alternative can be used as a "drop-in."
BARRIER HOSES:
HCFC-22, a component in some blends, can seep out through traditional hoses. Therefore, when using these blends, the technician must ensure that new, less permeable "barrier" hoses are used. These hoses must be installed if the system currently uses old, non-barrier hoses.. The table of refrigerants below notes this additional requirement where appropriate.
COMPRESSOR SHUTOFF SWITCH:
Some systems have a device that automatically releases refrigerant to the atmosphere to prevent extremely high pressures. When retrofitting any system with such a device to use a new refrigerant, the technician must also install a high-pressure shutoff switch. This switch will prevent the compressor from increasing the pressure to the point where the refrigerant is vented.
Alternative Refrigerants
The table below summarizes the following information about refrigerants reviewed under EPA's SNAP program for use in motor vehicle air conditioning systems. Note that "air conditioning" means cooling vehicle passenger compartments, not cargo areas, so refrigeration units on trucks and rail cars are not covered by this list.
Name: Many refrigerants are sold under various names. All known trade names are listed, separated by slashes.
Status:
acceptable subject to use conditions: May be used in any car or truck air conditioning system, provided the technician meets the conditions described above. Note that EPA cannot guarantee that any refrigerant will work in a specific system.
unacceptable: Illegal to use as a substitute for CFC-12 in motor vehicle air conditioners.
proposed acceptable subject to use conditions: May be used legally. EPA will accept public comment on these refrigerants and then make a final ruling. There is no formal EPA position until then, and it is inappropriate for advertising to imply that EPA has found the product acceptable.
not submitted: Illegal to use or sell as a substitute for CFC-12 in motor vehicle air conditioning systems.
Date of ruling: The date either a final rule or a proposed listing was published in the Federal Register. Note that proposed listings are not final and may change because of public comment.
Manufacturer name and contact phone number: Call for more information on testing, performance, system compatibility, etc.
Composition: Every refrigerant other than HFC-134a is a blend of two or more components.
For More Information
EPA's Stratospheric Ozone Protection Hotline, at 800-296-1996, distributes numerous fact sheets and brochures. The following fact sheets discuss various issues related to motor vehicle air conditioning and ozone depletion.
Fitting Sizes and Label Colors for Motor Vehicle Refrigerants
Questions to Ask Before You Purchase an Alternative Refrigerant
The Facts Behind the Phaseout (ozone depletion science)
Qs & As on HC-12a, OZ-12, and Other Flammable Refrigerants
Qs & As on Ozone-Depleting Refrigerants and Their Alternatives
Motor Vehicle Air Conditioning Substitutes for CFC-12 Reviewed Under EPA's SNAP Program as of December 17, 2008
Maybe I have not explained myself for you to understand.......
When I was working in the industry, RETIRED now, so no more A/C...
I did NOT use one of these automatic machines, when I first did auto A/C these machines where NOT available in the UK, mind you it was only imported american and Rolls Royce cars that had A/C ....yes that far back
My point is that since these machines have been available people (with the full 1 day training) have suddenly become Auto A/C engineers !!!!!!!
hence £45 for a re-gas, now you cannot blame a lot of these guys because their boss said "do this course, use this machine or ........." so they do it, so we end up with lots of cock-ups.
My point with your posts.... miss-leading info....
You can't charge the system from the "high" side fully,
Yes you can, charge by weight.
If the air-con wasn't switched on, he wouldn't have been able to draw any gas in the suction side
You do NOT need the A/C running to charge system,see above.
you need to bridge the pressure switch, this will allow the compressor to start and draw refrigerant in.
No you don't, the refrigerant left in the system should be reclaimed (you do NOT know what refrigerant is in the system or if there is any air/moisture) then you should evacuate, check to see if vacuum holds before recharging.
If you run the compressor to pull refrigerant in and the system has a leak on the low side it will draw air in which means moisture enters system as well....ooops!!!
I know very little about this stuff though, so don't take my word for to much
Your words NOT mine.
What you do for yourself and your mates is fine (I fully understand you are doing your best) only you or your mates may have a problem and I am sure you would sort it, the problem (IMHO) is when you tell post here (and I know you are trying to help) if people in the UK followed what you suggest and then had a problem would you be on your way over from Ausse to sort it? I only ask that you are careful with what you post.
I wish you well
Um,
ok, just so you know, I can't charge via weight from the high side, as I never manage to get the full charge in. there automatic machines must actually push the charge in... as in using a compressor pump to do it.
Reclaiming the gas ??? What a joke, what do you think happens with the majority of cars ?? They get re-charged with gas without the leaks being fixed... so leak out again very quickly. every car you see get crushed or wrecked, so you really think they "recover" the charge... nope, it just gets released into the atmosphere. If even one percent of the gas sold was recovered I would be most surprised.
Indeed what I said above is wrong if you have one of those new fangled machines.... If you don't have one of the new machines it's right though!
Example: The XM I bought, the receipts just for the last few years show the air-con has had at least $4000 spent on it.... Every 6months "checked for leaks, added tracer die and recharged".... Of course it would then work for a few weeks and all the gas would leak away again... As far as I could tell it had been "recharged" at high cost every year for as long as the documentation stated (yeah, our air-conditioning guys out here are expensive and not great).
I pulled the dash out and found the evaporator was leaky. I can assure you all of those "regassing" done over the last decade were NOT recovered they went straight into the cars cabin for the passengers to breath (which is great as apparantly R134a has been linked to testicular cancer).
Don't worry I will not offer anymore help where air-con is concerned, people can figure it out for themselves. If I don't say anything I can't say the wrong thing
BTW: I have no doubt the owners of the rights for R134a will find a way of making the hydrocarbon based refrigerants banned in every country in the world as they have a billion dollar industry to protect where they own the R134a patents.
seeya,
Shane L.
'96 Big BX 2.1TD exclusive slugomatic (aka XM)
'85 CX2500 GTi Turbo Series II (whoo hooo)
'96 Xantia VSX slugomatic (sold !!)
and of course, lots of old Citroens, slowly rusting away in pieces
Not that it matters to me personally, I hope it does for all the poor sods that have to work with it now! not only that, the crap pag oil that you have to use with it on auto a/c .....
R134a was used a a quick fix....HA....HA.....HA I think more a knee jerk reaction when they wanted rid of R12, R134a has been around for many a year but was not used as it was ........crappy!!!!!!!!!
Once every two years I 'phone my local mobile aircon expert (it's all he does). He comes and connects his equipment, an hour later I hand over £75 and enjoy cold air from my V6 XM for the next two years.
Derek
1999 XM V6 Exclusive, Black
1994 XM 2.0 TurboCT estate, green of course: now gone to no3 son
2004 C3 1.6 auto exclusive with Sensodrive - the wife's but she doesn't like it
1994 ZX 1.8i auto - the wife's new baby
My Cars: 2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue 1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - now owned by XanTom 1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
Reading (some of) this thread out of curiosity simply confirms my choice of a late '95 Xantia (no aircon, no engine ECU) on the basis that such things are just something else to go wrong - at great expense as I can't fix them myself! I have had enough traumas from iffy ABS connections as it is!
2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
Hi Paul, perhaps my posting was too simplistic. Last year my eight year old XM stopped producing cold air for the first time. I called out a local mobile aircon specialist and he did the business, he then recommended that I have it checked (by him) every two years.
I don't know whether he was being pessimistic - or maybe optimistic as far as his business is concerned but my gut feeling is to follow his advice.
Old-guy, I spent two years in Aden with a non-air conditioned DS (actually an ID but who's counting ) so I have some experience of suffering from heat trauma. Two of our cars, ZX and XM TCT estate don't have air conditioning, but when the mercury climbs out comes the V6. I see no point in being uncomfortable when you don't have to.
Derek
1999 XM V6 Exclusive, Black
1994 XM 2.0 TurboCT estate, green of course: now gone to no3 son
2004 C3 1.6 auto exclusive with Sensodrive - the wife's but she doesn't like it
1994 ZX 1.8i auto - the wife's new baby
they went straight into the cars cabin for the passengers to breath 
(which is great as apparantly R134a has been linked to testicular cancer).
