Can anyone tell me where the relay/timer is located on a 96 1.9 Xantia
The car is very slow to start from cold[:(].I want to check for poor earths etc. The batt shows about 12.6 volts on a volt meter but the same meter only shows about 10 volts reaching the plugs during heating. Could this be the cause of the problem or is this normal?
Xantia starting
Moderator: RichardW
-
pete woods
- Posts: 90
- Joined: 10 Dec 2002, 23:58
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
-
tomsheppard
- Posts: 1801
- Joined: 19 Dec 2002, 14:46
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
The First thing to measure is the voltage across the battery when the plugs are heating. If this is 10 volts, battery is kaput. If the voltage across battery is over 12.6, leave the negative meter lead where it is and measure Positive lead directly to the top of the glowplug having first made sure that you are connecting to bright and shiny metal. If the voltage is now low, you have a high resistance in the battery/relay/plug line or a shorted glowplug (unlikely but poss.) If this seems to be it, cleaning all the terminals should help. If there is no drop at all when you do this test, then the drop is in the earth line but this is unusual, too. I reckon it is the battery.
-
pete woods
- Posts: 90
- Joined: 10 Dec 2002, 23:58
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
Cheers Tom
I'll check it tonight. I assume the batts fine though as it has no trouble cranking the engine for the 20 - 40secs it takes to get it going from cold. I wanted to no where the relay was so i could check all the connections. i guess the engine & therefore the glowplugs must have a good earth or the starter motor would show symptoms. the car was sold with this problem & no one has been able to sort it out.
( I only found this out after I'd bought it![:(])
I'll check it tonight. I assume the batts fine though as it has no trouble cranking the engine for the 20 - 40secs it takes to get it going from cold. I wanted to no where the relay was so i could check all the connections. i guess the engine & therefore the glowplugs must have a good earth or the starter motor would show symptoms. the car was sold with this problem & no one has been able to sort it out.
( I only found this out after I'd bought it![:(])
-
pete woods
- Posts: 90
- Joined: 10 Dec 2002, 23:58
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
-
tomsheppard
- Posts: 1801
- Joined: 19 Dec 2002, 14:46
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
Granted this is unusual for a diesel because the CR should mean that the starter cries Enough if the battery is shot. Then again, the diesel canes batteries. When did you buy the car? Winter freeze ups can kill batteries without necessarily indicating so- even nearly new ones. If all your usual checks prove ok then run a big fat wire from battery+ to the glowplugs. crank the (COLD)engine after 10 seconds and if it starts you can eliminate battery and plugs.
-
pete woods
- Posts: 90
- Joined: 10 Dec 2002, 23:58
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
Done that Tom & it made no difference. At first I thought it was anair leak but using the primer pump made no difference so I don't think it's that. I have put brand new Beru plugs in & still no joy.
The only thing that looks iffy is the voltage at the plugs hence my request. I realise the wire from the battery should rule a problem out but what else can I do? Perhaps Jon's one way valve is the answer.
The only thing that looks iffy is the voltage at the plugs hence my request. I realise the wire from the battery should rule a problem out but what else can I do? Perhaps Jon's one way valve is the answer.
Hi there.
I've got more or less the same problem on my 94 TD. It's an absolute git to start from cold - it can take a lot of cranking - you can feel the block shaking as if really is just about to fire - but nothing. Eventually it'll start, after quite a lot of attempts, with some nice white smoke.
For the rest of the day, it's perfect.
Anyway, the car had new plugs fitted the day before I collected it which was about 8000 miles/10 months ago. I asked on other forums would the problem could be while these were down and everyone suggested the plugs, so I grabbed some BERU plugs from GSF. Managed to replace the two easy ones, the other two looked like a pig of a job. Anyway, it's not actually helped at all - the problem is still there.
Now, is this becuase:
a) I need to replace the other two plugs
b) Something else - perhaps the problem in this thread? It is odd that the last plugs only lasted 8k? Infact it's *never* been that great at starting, it always used to need 2-3 heats to get it going, but it's never been a chore.
How much should I expect to pay for the labour to sort the diffiucult two out? Not sure I can do it myself.
I've got more or less the same problem on my 94 TD. It's an absolute git to start from cold - it can take a lot of cranking - you can feel the block shaking as if really is just about to fire - but nothing. Eventually it'll start, after quite a lot of attempts, with some nice white smoke.
For the rest of the day, it's perfect.
Anyway, the car had new plugs fitted the day before I collected it which was about 8000 miles/10 months ago. I asked on other forums would the problem could be while these were down and everyone suggested the plugs, so I grabbed some BERU plugs from GSF. Managed to replace the two easy ones, the other two looked like a pig of a job. Anyway, it's not actually helped at all - the problem is still there.
Now, is this becuase:
a) I need to replace the other two plugs
b) Something else - perhaps the problem in this thread? It is odd that the last plugs only lasted 8k? Infact it's *never* been that great at starting, it always used to need 2-3 heats to get it going, but it's never been a chore.
How much should I expect to pay for the labour to sort the diffiucult two out? Not sure I can do it myself.
-
pete woods
- Posts: 90
- Joined: 10 Dec 2002, 23:58
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
Fox
I replaced the plugs one at a time with BERU one's. it's made no difference at all. The plugs that came out (NGK) looked & tested perfectly ok. they are not difficult to change just fiddly the worst being the one behind the pump. you will need to undo the metal fuel pipe from the pump (make sure you plug it & cover the union so no dirt gets in. then move as much wiring as you can out of the way I also bent a ring spanner a little to help get it onto the plug. put a rag under the plug to catch the nut that holds the cable to the plug undo it. I used a screwdriver with a magnetic tip to lift it out. losen the plug then its just a case of undoing it about an 1/8 of a turn at a time untill its free. reverse the process to put it back. Easy to do but a bit of a fiddle like lots of jobs on the Xantia ( Has the clip on your clutch pedal broken yet?) Wot a larf! Not!
i was quoted £80 to change the plugs inc labor but was too tight to pay someone else. look at my post on 03/03/03 (I think) for the other things I've tried.
Jon's idea of a valve in the return pipe may do the trick but I've still yet to try loosening the injector unions then cranking the engine to see if theres fuel there.
I'll be so happy to get this sorted out I'll probably marry the person who comes up with the answer! You've been warned Jon!
I replaced the plugs one at a time with BERU one's. it's made no difference at all. The plugs that came out (NGK) looked & tested perfectly ok. they are not difficult to change just fiddly the worst being the one behind the pump. you will need to undo the metal fuel pipe from the pump (make sure you plug it & cover the union so no dirt gets in. then move as much wiring as you can out of the way I also bent a ring spanner a little to help get it onto the plug. put a rag under the plug to catch the nut that holds the cable to the plug undo it. I used a screwdriver with a magnetic tip to lift it out. losen the plug then its just a case of undoing it about an 1/8 of a turn at a time untill its free. reverse the process to put it back. Easy to do but a bit of a fiddle like lots of jobs on the Xantia ( Has the clip on your clutch pedal broken yet?) Wot a larf! Not!
i was quoted £80 to change the plugs inc labor but was too tight to pay someone else. look at my post on 03/03/03 (I think) for the other things I've tried.
Jon's idea of a valve in the return pipe may do the trick but I've still yet to try loosening the injector unions then cranking the engine to see if theres fuel there.
I'll be so happy to get this sorted out I'll probably marry the person who comes up with the answer! You've been warned Jon!
-
Jon
As it happens, as it happens (that was my Jimmy Saville impression)
Those nice chaps at Pierburg have developed a one way valve available in 6mm or 8mm size for diesel fuel lines. The 6mm will be the one we want I think. They tell me that they sell a lot of them in Germany.
I have ordered some, but I don't know the price as yet. Will keep you posted.
Those nice chaps at Pierburg have developed a one way valve available in 6mm or 8mm size for diesel fuel lines. The 6mm will be the one we want I think. They tell me that they sell a lot of them in Germany.
I have ordered some, but I don't know the price as yet. Will keep you posted.
-
Jon
-
pete woods
- Posts: 90
- Joined: 10 Dec 2002, 23:58
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
-
Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
If you have to put a valve in there somewhere then you have an air leak.
Where do you put the valve? if you are lucky and place it before the leak all well and good, if you place it after the leak the problem does'nt go away.
You have allready tried priming with the rubber bulb, so if there were any leaks at all this would have refilled the pump and the engine would have started easily, but you say it made no difference, this is also what you can expect after the fitting of such a valve I think.
You say you have yet to try loosening the injector unions, why?, this is one of the first things that anybody serious about getting to the bottom such a starting problem does, because it can turn up a sticking stop solenoid for one and two if there is no fuel you don't need to look anywhere else, just concentrate on where the fuel has got to.
If there is fuel why is there not enough heat to burn it.
No doubt the previous owner tried to get this sorted and explored all the variables or at least had it done, this may point to an internal fault with the pump.
The start quantity of fuel delivered decreases when the engine is warm, maybe this device is at fault and is only delivering the warm start quantity even when the engine is cold.
Dave
Where do you put the valve? if you are lucky and place it before the leak all well and good, if you place it after the leak the problem does'nt go away.
You have allready tried priming with the rubber bulb, so if there were any leaks at all this would have refilled the pump and the engine would have started easily, but you say it made no difference, this is also what you can expect after the fitting of such a valve I think.
You say you have yet to try loosening the injector unions, why?, this is one of the first things that anybody serious about getting to the bottom such a starting problem does, because it can turn up a sticking stop solenoid for one and two if there is no fuel you don't need to look anywhere else, just concentrate on where the fuel has got to.
If there is fuel why is there not enough heat to burn it.
No doubt the previous owner tried to get this sorted and explored all the variables or at least had it done, this may point to an internal fault with the pump.
The start quantity of fuel delivered decreases when the engine is warm, maybe this device is at fault and is only delivering the warm start quantity even when the engine is cold.
Dave
let me start by saying that while I am familiar with the Citroen diesel engine I am not familiar with Xantias. It seems to me that you can see if the glowplug feed is at fault simply by jump-leading the glow plugs and see if this makes any difference. I would suggest you disconnect the feed to the plugs just to prevent any possibility of damage, and then connect a lead straight from the battery positive terminal to one of the plugs and try to start the engine after about 15 seconds. If it starts properly you may have found your problem -if it makes no difference then the supply is probably working correctly.
I'm sure I need not mention thet you shouldn't leave the lead connected for long so as to prevent damage to the glow plugs.
Incidentally I would expect the relay to lurk under a black plastic cover somewhere in the vicinity of the battery, and that it will have a thick lead going to it. If all else fails you could listen for it clicking while someone turns the ignition key for you but there may well be other relays that click at the same time.
jeremy
Jeremy
I'm sure I need not mention thet you shouldn't leave the lead connected for long so as to prevent damage to the glow plugs.
Incidentally I would expect the relay to lurk under a black plastic cover somewhere in the vicinity of the battery, and that it will have a thick lead going to it. If all else fails you could listen for it clicking while someone turns the ignition key for you but there may well be other relays that click at the same time.
jeremy
Jeremy
-
pete woods
- Posts: 90
- Joined: 10 Dec 2002, 23:58
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
Dave, I undid the no 4 injector union by 1/2 a turn. with the engine stone cold as soon as i turned the starter diesel began to leak from the joint. It didn't spurt but there was fuel there.
So how do I check the cold start fuel quantity?
from the tests I have done it seems that there is fuel there,there isn't an air leak & the glowplugs are working. Maybe the car just doesn't like me cos I looked at it funny!
So how do I check the cold start fuel quantity?
from the tests I have done it seems that there is fuel there,there isn't an air leak & the glowplugs are working. Maybe the car just doesn't like me cos I looked at it funny!