Harsh suspension is the next target on the new to me Citroen C5.
Various people have commented on the fact that the C5 suspension is hard, mine certainly is, it's o.k on gentle dips and bumps but any drain cover, pot hole of the smallest size and the shock transmitted is worse than a Ford Focus I hired a few weeks ago by a large margin. The XM was reckoned by many to be vastly inferior to the CX this is certainly vastly inferior to the XM. .
New spheres are obviously a possibility and a set for the front are currently awaiting fitment. However I have read of a few people who have gone this route with little or no improvement, my local Cit dealer spares dept tell me that they have had very little call for new spheres, however at circa £140 a pop that maybe because people go to other suppliers or it could be that these spheres really do not leak and hence do not need changing.
My view is that the H3 suspension on the 2.2Hdi is over damped in soft mode and I have serious doubts that fitting new spheres is going to change things by very much.
What I would like to know is some technical details of spheres fitted to various Citroens.
Specifically on the XM what is the capacity, pressure AND damper orfice size of the XM front regulator sphere. and the same for the front strut spheres.
On the C5 NON H3 hydractive what are the orifices size on the front strut spheres.
Actually im quite impressed with the ride of the C5 estate we have. Ours has done 107K miles now and i believe its still on original spheres. Its far softer than a conventional car, however it is a 2.0HDi so H3 non+. Its not really a Citroen like ride, but its far from bad and soaks up most bumps.
By contrast my C5 hatch has comfort spheres, which are much softer, however im questioning if they are a little too soft. It often makes a bigger deal of bumps due to it having less damping. But it certainly floats like a Citroen should, not Xm like though. Again its not a sport model.
Searching around on here reveals that its not possible to use spheres from cars with LHM on the C5, as this runs on LDS it is not compatable with spheres from Xantias, Xms etc.
A good, well sorted Xm is pretty hard to beat, ok the CX maybe softer but the Xm is a better comprimise, as it has the computer to cut out the body lean. A good Xm can be made to be as soft as a CX and still have the body control, which in my opinion makes the XM superior to the CX.
You could try a set of comfort spheres? with a H3+ model you should get the best of both worlds, body control and a nice ride.
Though really, for a soft ride the C5 needs more suspension travel.
Chris
07 Citroen C6 V6 HDi Exclusive - Red
07 Citroen C5 HDi VTR - Red
09 Citroen C3 1.4i VTR - Silver
01 Citroen Saxo 1.1i Forte - Mango Orange
.
93 Ford Mondeo 2.0i GLX
19 Hyundai i10
Citroenmad wrote:Actually im quite impressed with the ride of the C5 estate we have. Ours has done 107K miles now and i believe its still on original spheres. Its far softer than a conventional car, however it is a 2.0HDi so H3 non+. Its not really a Citroen like ride, but its far from bad and soaks up most bumps.
By contrast my C5 hatch has comfort spheres, which are much softer, however im questioning if they are a little too soft. It often makes a bigger deal of bumps due to it having less damping. But it certainly floats like a Citroen should, not Xm like though. Again its not a sport model.
Searching around on here reveals that its not possible to use spheres from cars with LHM on the C5, as this runs on LDS it is not compatable with spheres from Xantias, Xms etc.
A good, well sorted Xm is pretty hard to beat, ok the CX maybe softer but the Xm is a better compromise, as it has the computer to cut out the body lean. A good Xm can be made to be as soft as a CX and still have the body control, which in my opinion makes the XM superior to the CX.
You could try a set of comfort spheres? with a H3+ model you should get the best of both worlds, body control and a nice ride.
Though really, for a soft ride the C5 needs more suspension travel.
That's interesting info yr C5's are only a year newer than mine but are H +0
what that is saying is that you get a good ride with lower pressure spheres on the struts and as it's an SX presumably larger section tyres on 15 inch rims same as the XM
My gut feel is that my car would ride better on larger section tyres i.e there is a degree of suspension travel increase with the larger section tyre.
It's also interesting that yours is on the original spheres which tends to support the assertion by my local parts people that they really do last for life!
I don't believe that comfort spheres would work on the H3 in that it would make soft mode softer and "hard" mode softer, I feel that "hard" mode is o.k it's only the soft end that needs to be softer. The orifice size in the center sphere looks an awful lot smaller than the one in the XM (as I remember it!). My fingers keep on itching to ream it out a bit!
I did think about fitting a set of XM spheres I came to the conclusion that difference in fluids wasn't a major problem however i have read that the thread sizes are different which is a bigger problem:-(.
The more pressure in a sphere the softer it will ride. Hence as spheres get old they lose pressure and become harder. I cant say for sure that the estate still has its original spheres, although it does appear to have them. Citroen originally said that the spheres were good for 125K or 5 years.
I removed one of my comfort spheres last week, im going to try and make them slightly harder. However, i had thought the centre hole would have been made bigger, however it hasn’t. Instead two more holes have been drilled, one either side of the centre hole.
We have a set of comfort spheres sat in the garage waiting to be fitted to the estate. However i dont think we will be fitting them now, as it rides fine. Those do have a larger centre hole and no other holes have been drilled. It would be interesting to try those on my hatch to see if there is a difference, although we will be sending those ones back soon.
In my opinion my comfort spheres are a little too soft for the cars own good. It often makes a bigger deal of some bumps because its still trying to compose itself after the bump. So my plan is to either block up one of the holes or make both new holes smaller. We have done this before with the spheres on the traction, which has worked well.
The problem with the C5, is that, compared to the older Citroens - Xms, Xantias etc, the suspension travel is very limited. So having a C5 set too softly can mean that you fine the extremes of the suspension travel all too easily. Which does nothing for the ride or handling of the car. Its very easy to have the suspension reach the full movement on undulating roads.
Yes, i think your right, tyres and wheel sizes have a lot of influence on ride and handling. Sx models have 15" wheels, mine being the 2.0HDi Hatch, has 195/65/15 tyres and the estate, being an estate, has 205/65/15 tyres. The estates tyres have a higher load rating, so have stiffer sidewalls. My hatch is on Michelins which i feel have too softer sidewall. Its good for the ride comfort, however the steering feels far more numb than the estates, which is on different branded tyres and a higher load rating.
Is yours an Exclusive SE with 16" wheels?
Actually i think the thread sizes are the same between the Xm and C5. However having a quick look at the front spheres on the C5 and seeing that they are quite a tight fit, i dont think you would get the bigger spheres of the Xm on there. However its more the fluid that is the problem, Xm spheres were not designed to run on LDS.
Now there are a lot of opinions about this, some say LDS is just an orange version of LHM, so say the LDS will degrade the diaphragm in the Xm spheres etc. So im not really sure what to believe there.
It would be very nice to have them on Xm spheres though, as you can adjust the pressure to what you want (thats what you need for a better ride, instead of playing about with the centre hole sizes, its the gas pressure which should ideally be changed) and when they become a little hard you can ragas them.
On your H3+ C5, you will have extra spheres, if you changed your soft spheres to comfort spheres that will make it softer, and leave your sport setting the same. As when its in sport the soft spheres are cut out.
This is what we have done with the Xms, the soft spheres have slightly increased pressure in them than normal, to give a softer ride. However the sport spheres are the same, so it still offers good handling but with a better ride in the soft mode.
Chris.
Chris
07 Citroen C6 V6 HDi Exclusive - Red
07 Citroen C5 HDi VTR - Red
09 Citroen C3 1.4i VTR - Silver
01 Citroen Saxo 1.1i Forte - Mango Orange
.
93 Ford Mondeo 2.0i GLX
19 Hyundai i10
I would expect it to be less likely that XM spheres' diaphragm will be corroded by LDS. LHM must have additives in order to cope with the temperatures involved in braking. These additives are usually also potent solvents that attack any rubber. The special rubber used in the diaphragms in the LHM spheres cope will with the LHM but show less resistance to molecular effusion, and lose pressure relatively quickly. Now LDS doesn't need those additives, so more effusion-resistance types of rubber can be used for the diaphragm.
In short, for exactly the same reason the LHM spheres last less than the LDS ones, I would expect the former to be more resistant to chemical agents.
About the original problem, are you sure the rear suspension is mechanically ok? I don't know about the C5, but the Xantia have the recurring problem of the rear arm bearing which also makes the suspension crashy, especially for pot holes and bad tarmac. I know I get my share of them everyday.
The ride on my C5 is great. Standard spheres and normal H3 not plus. I would say the ride in mine is not a million miles from my XM, the biggest difference being the seats themselves.
Is the ride height correct? This can be adjusted with a Lexia 3. Also as you suggest, I think tyre profile size has a big effect on the ride comfort. Hence why I sold the 17" wheels with 45 section tyres that were fitted to the XM when I bought it. With those fitted it tugged at the steering wheel and crashed over bad surfaces, now with 65 section tyres fitted it's far more civilized.
Citroenmad wrote:The more pressure in a sphere the softer it will ride. Hence as spheres get old they lose pressure and become harder. I cant say for sure that the estate still has its original spheres, although it does appear to have them. Citroen originally said that the spheres were good for 125K or 5 years.
I removed one of my comfort spheres last week, im going to try and make them slightly harder. However, i had thought the centre hole would have been made bigger, however it hasn’t. Instead two more holes have been drilled, one either side of the centre hole.
We have a set of comfort spheres sat in the garage waiting to be fitted to the estate. However i dont think we will be fitting them now, as it rides fine. Those do have a larger centre hole and no other holes have been drilled. It would be interesting to try those on my hatch to see if there is a difference, although we will be sending those ones back soon.
In my opinion my comfort spheres are a little too soft for the cars own good. It often makes a bigger deal of some bumps because its still trying to compose itself after the bump. So my plan is to either block up one of the holes or make both new holes smaller. We have done this before with the spheres on the traction, which has worked well.
The problem with the C5, is that, compared to the older Citroens - Xms, Xantias etc, the suspension travel is very limited. So having a C5 set too softly can mean that you fine the extremes of the suspension travel all too easily. Which does nothing for the ride or handling of the car. Its very easy to have the suspension reach the full movement on undulating roads.
Yes I had wondered if it was the stops I was hitting every time the wheels fall into a hole but I don;t think it is.
Yes, i think your right, tyres and wheel sizes have a lot of influence on ride and handling. Sx models have 15" wheels, mine being the 2.0HDi Hatch, has 195/65/15 tyres and the estate, being an estate, has 205/65/15 tyres. The estates tyres have a higher load rating, so have stiffer sidewalls. My hatch is on Michelins which i feel have too softer sidewall. Its good for the ride comfort, however the steering feels far more numb than the estates, which is on different branded tyres and a higher load rating.
Is yours an Exclusive SE with 16" wheels?
Yes the estate version. I would have expected a differrence between the spheres fitted on an H3 setup with 15 inch wheels compared to 16 inch wheels due to different tyre characteristics but this does not seem to be the case.
Actually i think the thread sizes are the same between the Xm and C5. However having a quick look at the front spheres on the C5 and seeing that they are quite a tight fit, i dont think you would get the bigger spheres of the Xm on there. However its more the fluid that is the problem, Xm spheres were not designed to run on LDS.
Now there are a lot of opinions about this, some say LDS is just an orange version of LHM, so say the LDS will degrade the diaphragm in the Xm spheres etc. So im not really sure what to believe there.
It would be very nice to have them on Xm spheres though, as you can adjust the pressure to what you want (thats what you need for a better ride, instead of playing about with the centre hole sizes, its the gas pressure which should ideally be changed) and when they become a little hard you can ragas them.
On your H3+ C5, you will have extra spheres, if you changed your soft spheres to comfort spheres that will make it softer, and leave your sport setting the same. As when its in sport the soft spheres are cut out.
This is what we have done with the Xms, the soft spheres have slightly increased pressure in them than normal, to give a softer ride. However the sport spheres are the same, so it still offers good handling but with a better ride in the soft mode.
Chris.
In respect of the way the system works the XM and C5 are the same, the centre sphere is in for soft mode and switched out for hard mode thus to make the car softer in soft mode only it is the centre sphere which will have to be modified, what I would like to know is, what is the orfice size in an XM centre sphere, the one on the C5 looks very small.
steelcityuk wrote:
Is the ride height correct? This can be adjusted with a Lexia 3. Also as you suggest, I think tyre profile size has a big effect on the ride comfort. Hence why I sold the 17" wheels with 45 section tyres that were fitted to the XM when I bought it. With those fitted it tugged at the steering wheel and crashed over bad surfaces, now with 65 section tyres fitted it's far more civilized.
Steve.
Hi Steve
Yes ride heights are correct your description of tugging at the steering wheel is just what it does, looks like I need to look out for a set of 15 inch wheels
bruno wrote:I would expect it to be less likely that XM spheres' diaphragm will be corroded by LDS. LHM must have additives in order to cope with the temperatures involved in braking. These additives are usually also potent solvents that attack any rubber. The special rubber used in the diaphragms in the LHM spheres cope will with the LHM but show less resistance to molecular effusion, and lose pressure relatively quickly. Now LDS doesn't need those additives, so more effusion-resistance types of rubber can be used for the diaphragm.
In short, for exactly the same reason the LHM spheres last less than the LDS ones, I would expect the former to be more resistant to chemical agents.
About the original problem, are you sure the rear suspension is mechanically ok? I don't know about the C5, but the Xantia have the recurring problem of the rear arm bearing which also makes the suspension crashy, especially for pot holes and bad tarmac. I know I get my share of them everyday.
Ola Bruno
Como via voce?
That's interesting stuff about LHM and LDS The rear arm bearing were replaced only a few months ago so I assume that they are good.
Yes I know exactly what you mean about Brazilian roads they can be a good test of any suspension How well does a Xantia cope with conditions in Brazil?
Hidropneumatics are practically made for the type of roads we have here. My Xantia went over 110 thousand km and never needed any general tightening of nuts to remove the irritating sounds. Its rear arm bearing is in bad shape, though, and the cheapo droplinks I've fitted last February didn't last two months. Still, I love my French lover (it sure can spend like one.)
Hidropneumatics are practically made for the type of roads we have here. My Xantia went over 110 thousand km and never needed any general tightening of nuts to remove the irritating sounds. Its rear arm bearing is in bad shape, though, and the cheapo droplinks I've fitted last February didn't last two months. Still, I love my French lover (it sure can spend like one.)
Take care, man. And don't drink too much.
hi Bruno
Eu bebo?? E muito dificil de encontra cachaca aqui . Pois Cachaciero e uma apelida ninguem na universo da ingles uso antes eu.
That's interesting I wasn't sure that the Citroens available in Brazil had the hydropneumatic suspension I guess that the diesel versions of most models don't exist?
Like to know these things, keep thinking about returning to Brazil, getting to old for English winters
To finally close the original thread I finally discovered that the majority of my suspension problems seem to have been caused by air in the oil.
The problems and issues involved in bleeding have been quite comprehensively covered in threads raised by sportingfiat with his pump problem so I will say no more on the subject except that Citrorobics may not be adequate to completely bleed the system.
Now to the last problem inherited with the car, steering bias to the left!!.
Having previously owned 2 DS, 4 CX, and an XM, I am not impressed with the ride on my C5 estate yes it is 7 years old and to me the spheres feel hard, it also wallows and that is with out playing with the sports setting. The ride is infinitly better than the nissan I traded in to buy it but I'm not convinced the ride is any better than my girlfriendf fiat punto, or my brother inlaws ford mondeo. If I can cure its fuel injection problems I'll be looking into this with more interest.
.
How well does a Xantia cope with conditions in Brazil?