New Member/Citroen C3 1.4 HDI 16v

wheeler · Post by **wheeler** » 17 Apr 2009, 00:17

bencowell wrote:
wheeler wrote:
ianckt739 wrote: What are people's opinions on injector cleaners/fuel additives i.e. redex etc - are they worth bothering with? Might they help as a prevention of injector trouble or has anyone experienced problems with them?
Well Citroens opinion is they dont approve the use of any additives for HDi engines.
Which is funny because most main dealers round here have optional fuel system cleaner for an extra £xxxx during a service.

I know & all the additive bottles say they are suitable for HDi engines but ask forte, wynns etc to show you proof from Citroen that they approve the use of their additive & you wont get it. I dont think that it would do any harm on HDi's apart from models with particle filters, I would imagine they could lead to clogging problems.

ianckt739 · Post by **ianckt739** » 18 Apr 2009, 13:35

Sounds like a get-out-of-jail-free card for citroen when people are making warranty claims. Mines well out of warranty now but I don't know if I'd want to run the risk of stirring up any crud from inside.

I know citroen recommend total oils etc, and a total garage on my way to work sells 'excelleum' diesel - anyone tried this? Cost wise it's actually the same price as the regular diesel at my local supermarket!

Claims to have detergents in it for a cleaner fuel system etc but again I don't know if I want to run the risk given that it's running fine at the moment (touch wood!).

bencowell · Post by **bencowell** » 18 Apr 2009, 14:37

Round here there are four nozzles at each pump. 2 for normal petrol and diesel, 2 for excellium petrol and diesel. Excellium costs a few p more but I haven't tried it.

Post by **myglaren** » 18 Apr 2009, 16:03

Worth knowing as I pass a Total station on the way to work. Haven't used Total for years, not since the GS I think.

Been using Shell V-power but haven't observed any differences. That could be due to an [as yet undetermined) engine fault of course.

Post by **myglaren** » 19 Apr 2009, 18:24

Was running low on fuel so went to the Total station that I pass on my way to work. Better to get it today as it is a bit of a nightmare getting in and out of there early mornings and tea-time.

The red "Low Fuel" indicator and bleep sounded just as I pulled in.

Naturally, they had never heard of "Excellium".

Filled up with joe schmoe diesel and looked up Total Excellium on the net to find that the station I usually go to for a jetwash is now a Total station and has Excellium. Only a couple of miles away too.

Will be another five weeks before I need any though.

ianckt739 · Post by **ianckt739** » 19 Apr 2009, 23:40

That sounds about right! Well I've put my first tank full of excellium in, I'll give it maybe two or three tanks and compare mileage etc and see what happens.

Assuming my injectors don't clog up and explode the engine or something... fingers crossed!

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 20 Apr 2009, 10:37

A lot of injector problems on C3, 4 and 5s are caused by poor quality fuel being used.

I know C5s tend to suffer with injector issues, especially as they get near the 100K mile mark.

This is often put down to using poor fuel, such as supermarket (tesco, asda etc) or low brand fuel (imperial etc).

I think this is to do with the fact these 'cheap' fuels do not have the lubricating factors that are needed in modern high pressure diesel engines.

I dont want to start a huge fuel debate, as a lot of people think fuel is fuel and thats that. However it depends on which brand you buy, shell and BP are by far the best. Fuel is all the same, yes, however it differs between each company due to the additives each brand puts into their own fuel.

Poor fuel will also not do fuel pumps any favours either, which is something else C3-5s can suffer with.

I know for a fact my C5 has only ever been run on Shell, Shell V-Power and BP, it has done 110K miles now and it drives like its a new car, the engine is very fit indeed. I changed the oil last week, 250 miles later the oil is still as clean on the dipstick as it was when i put it in.

I also know the car has never been any problem for its previous owner. I always use Shell fuel myself, so ill continue with my C5 and keep it running smoothly.

JamesQB: What fuel do you use? If you dont use shell or BP i would suggest using it, for a few full tank fulls anyway, and see how you get on. Maybe even use Shell V-Power too. Id also strongly recommend the use of http://www.forteuk.co.uk/Diesel_fuel.htm. With your problem i would put two bottles of this Forte treatment in, with say a quatre of a tank of shell fuel and give it a bit of a burst to get the fuel going through.

This should help matters, although it maybe that your injectors are too worn to bring back, but you can only try this, its a very inexpensive thing to use, and something which might help. Its something i use once every 6 months or so, it does make a big difference, especially if the car is used a lot for town work. But for best results it needs a good long run with a few revs.

As for safety of using Forte on a HDi, its perfectly safe, i have put it in both C5s and they are still going well, well better infact for having the treatment. I have been using it in our 206 2.0HDi for a while and thats fine, runs like a dream. The fact is, Forte fuel system cleaners have lubrication in them, so thats fine and its what your car needs. However in not sure about other brands, Forte is the only brand i would use. As is Shell and BP.

Im impressed with my C5s economy for a large car. On a run i can get the MPG readout around the 46-48MPG mark, which i have found always underreads by 6-7MPG! So in reality thats 52/3 - 55/6 MPG. Which is superb, not many large cars do that. It doesnt seem to like town work, but will still do about 40MPG with mixed driving. My average is about 42MPG on the roadout, so about 48mpg and i dont usually hang about either.

Chris.

steelcityuk · Post by **steelcityuk** » 20 Apr 2009, 10:48

On the additive front, Forte seems to be the one people recommend (if any) and used by some trade but it is expensive. No sure about running additives on a day to day basis but as an infrequent service item them they should be OK.

Fuel wise I generally use Shell. Usually they are cheaper than the supermarkets around here and I can even get LPG there, that said the cheapest LPG I've found is Morrisons at 47.9 PPL.

Steve.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 20 Apr 2009, 10:55

Forte is used by a lot of garages, infact if you have heard of the 'good garage scheme' it is Forte who run that and every garage on there uses a large quantity of Forte treatments.

Actually Forte only sell to the trade, so im not sure how these internet sites get them, or how they find their way onto ebay, but they do!

Some Forte treatments are recommended by Vauxhall for a inbuilt issue with one of the car models. So they are highly recommended by manufacturers. However if you ring your local dealer and ask, they might not like it, as they no doubt use a cheaper make of flush/system cleaner etc, so they may well promote that instead.

Its not really expensive, £10-£15 per bottle isnt much, however it is more than some cleaners but its worth it, as it does actually work.

Forte isnt something you put in with every tank, its a once in a while thing, but it does make a difference.

steelcityuk · Post by **steelcityuk** » 20 Apr 2009, 13:23

I have a friend that's an MOT tester, he's part of the scheme so I buy mine there if I need it. It generally costs around £10 per bottle. I haven't come across a Forte dealer yet that won't sell you a bottle if you specifically ask for it.

Steve.

Post by **myglaren** » 20 Apr 2009, 17:35

You can often get it from Aldi at £10 a bottle.

ianckt739 · Post by **ianckt739** » 20 Apr 2009, 22:44

Well after a bit of a thrashing last night and a day's driving around the C3's engine is sounding smoother already.

Thanks for the advice regarding fuel - I'll be sticking to the premium diesel definitely, total excellium is the nearest one to me.

The car is on about 91k now having just taken ownership of it so hopefully it'll help to prevent the injectors etc going at the 100k mark. Not sure what the previous owners have used in it though. I'll just have to hope the injectors aren't in too bad a condition already.

Incidentally I've just given it a service this evening too, new oil (total quartz 7000), oil/air filters but my motor factor has given me the wrong fuel filter (the one for the 8v I think) so that's going to have to wait a few days. I've sourced the correct one cheaper on ebay anyway - not a cheap import either - so that'll be going back tomorrow.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 21 Apr 2009, 20:50

steelcityuk wrote:I have a friend that's an MOT tester, he's part of the scheme so I buy mine there if I need it. It generally costs around £10 per bottle. I haven't come across a Forte dealer yet that won't sell you a bottle if you specifically ask for it.

Steve.

Nope, your quite right, they will sell it to you if you ask. I was meaning forte itself, they have reps who distribute the products, each rep owns his/her own area etc, they can only sell to the trade, not the public, obviously its then the garages job to sell them onto the public, albeit its usually part of a service.

Good to hear your C3 is running better, 90K should be very little for a HDI engine, ive seen the 2.0s with over 300K

steelcityuk · Post by **steelcityuk** » 22 Apr 2009, 10:20

I may try a bottle of Forte Injector cleaner in the XM just to keep them sweet, they don't get much use as the LPG kicks in within 1/2 mile.

I don't know about the 1.4 HDi specifically but when changing the fuel filter be extra careful to keep everything clean. It sounds like it's coming along nicely.

Steve.

JamesQB · Post by **JamesQB** » 24 Apr 2009, 15:18

ianckt739 wrote: Thanks for your reply - sounds expensive.... I'll just have to keep an eye on things really. I'm guessing it's not something you notice until it's too late?

It was very sudden. Literally one day it was fine, starting almost instantly when key turned and going well. Following day it took longer to start and when it did, it blew clouds of white smoke into the street. Been the same ever since (2 years on). On hot days it'll start more quickly with less smoke but still runs lumpily, on rare occasions reverting to limp-home mode and refusing to go over 50mph. Otherwise just lumpy, lacking in power and not good.

Citroenmad wrote: JamesQB: What fuel do you use? If you dont use shell or BP i would suggest using it, for a few full tank fulls anyway, and see how you get on. Maybe even use Shell V-Power too. Id also strongly recommend the use of http://www.forteuk.co.uk/Diesel_fuel.htm. With your problem i would put two bottles of this Forte treatment in, with say a quatre of a tank of shell fuel and give it a bit of a burst to get the fuel going through.

We use fuel from a few different ones, depending on convenience as we live in a tiny North Wales town that gets overcrowded in season. Usually it's from the local Tesco but at the time of the problems it was probably more often the Shell garage or half and half. Rarely it's a Texaco on way to work. Now it's usually Tesco as Shell garage has dozen or more cars tailing back, but I'll certainly take your advice and try just fuel from Shell for a while and see what happens. The problem with the car has been consistent now for almost 2 years, and despite trading standards agreeing with us that the injectors shouldn't play up at it's then mileage, they said we'd have to go to court which would prove costly and time-consuming with no guarantee of winning and hence having a hefty bill to pay. As we both work full-time and I do extra hours to bring in a few pence more, it just wasn't a viable route to take. I'll try and get hold of some Forte additive too, and give it a shot. Nothing to lose now as we just can't afford cost of injector replacement - still paying off car loan!

Out of interest, do you know what actually goes wrong with the injectors? I've found many reports on the net about C3 HDi injector failures and one chap who claimed a citroen tech told him that on an update course the instructor said there were quality issues with this engine's injector rail. I suppose they're knackered once they play up like this and there's no cheaper solution than replacement?