Citroen C3 1.4 HDi hard to start, white smoke, clattering.

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JamesQB
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Citroen C3 1.4 HDi hard to start, white smoke, clattering.

Post by JamesQB »

Hi all,

I've posted about this before, quite some time ago. It's now 2 years to the month since the symptoms appeared with this rubbishy car. I'm hoping by posting again, someone with some info who missed it or wasn't around when the post was about will see it.

Vehicle: Citroen C3 1.4 HDi 16V. Year 2003.

Symptoms: Very hard to start when cold. Crank engine for up to a minute some mornings until engine eventually catches. As it's getting closer to catching properly, it'll give false starts - catching momentarily before returning to just cranking. Once it starts, it billows white smoke out of the exhaust, sometimes in massive quantites making part of the street disappear. Whilst doing this it sounds like the engine is choking - it's rough and lumpy. The noise is terrible, like a very old and worn diesel engine (but worse) - clattering, tinkering and growling while pulling off. A few people have stopped us to say the engine sounds too noisy and also that it sounds like the exhaust is blowing (it isn't). Usually the smoke continues at a lower volume whilst driving off, stopping once it warms up (or at least reducing to the point you can't see it behind you). On odd occasions it has continued smoking heavily even once a mile or two down the road, enough for us to see billowing out behind the car. The last time it did this (some months ago) the car behind kept flashing us until we pulled over, as he thought we had a major problem with car. The rule, however, is less smoke when driving off after the initial clouds from starting, enough for someone watching the car dirve off to see, but not enough to stand in the air and create a smokescreen. When the engine is nice and hot, the smoke either stops completely or is very low in volume.

While still cold, as well as the smoke, the engine is hesitant, weak and lumpy. It is also still noisy and clattering away. Until the turbo boost occurs at just over 2000rpm, the car has very little power at all and will stall if not careful (and sometimes stall for no reason even if you apply more revs). As it warms up, it improves quite a bit, becoming less noisy and hesitant with more of the power back. It should be said, though, that at high revs even when cold, it will still not do badly and evens out a bit. However, even when hot, it's still too noisy and not as smooth or quite as powerful as it was before this problem started. It has, on rare occasions, gone into what I understand is 'limp-home' mode; it was very slow to accelerate and wouldn't really go much over 50mph. On one of these occasions it sorted itself out while driving, just suddenly improving. On another it was better after we stopped, did our shopping and came back and restarted it.

Fuel usage seems to have increased a bit. Our embarrassment levels have increased a lot. It's not much fun sitting in a newish car cranking and cranking until it finally starts, coughs out white smoke in volumes, then pulls off sounding like a washing machine filled with nails and roaring like a tractor engine. It really does have the raw, aggressive roar of a tractor or lorry engine when it's at its worst when cold, with lots of metallic clattering. On a handful of occasions, the car has taken longer than usual to start, and once it catches, it sounds like a petrol engine would if only 3 of the 4 cylinders were firing - just on the brink of cutting out. Imagine a heart having palpitations and that's how the engine sounded, lumpy and all over the place, desperately trying to stay running.

We simply cannot afford to have Citroen or any other garage spend time on it - the financial problems in the UK have hit us hard, and we were struggling before anyway and couldn't afford it. I have tried Citroen UK, the dealers from which we bought it, and Trading Standards. None have helped. The dealer insulted my wife over the phone and called her a 'little woman' who knew nothing of cars. Citroen UK won't help. Trading Standards said we'd need to pay for an independent inspection of the car, and then probably have to go to court using the inspection as evidence of whatever has failed as being unfit for purpose and not designed to last a decent amount of time. After seeing the cost of independent inspectors, we knew that path was blocked. As was going to court, really. We spend most our lives working all hours in crap jobs just to survive. Not much time for court cases, or money. We're still paying off the loan for the C3!

It would be nice to start by having the fault codes read, but even that costs quite a bit at the local dealerrship from which we unfortunately bought this vehicle.

The car will be 6 years old the end of this year. Was just over 3 years old when symptoms first appeared. The symptoms literally appeared overnight: there was no slow decrease in performance, no gradual increase in engine rattle and noise, nor was it getting harder and harder to start. One day it was fine, started quickly and ran very well indeed; next morning it was very hard to start and had all other symptoms. In two years it has got no better or worse and has covered another 20,000 miles.

This is not a rare problem with the 16V diesel C3. In fact, I have found evidence of the same problem all over the internet. One chap with the username Alan FC had the exact same symptoms, as reported on another car forum. Unfortunately his posts ended mid-2007 with no resolution stated. As of that post, Citroen had fitted a new ECU and 4 new injectors, all to no avail. They'd read no useful fault codes and Citroen UK's technical department were stumped. I've tried contacting him through the forum via email, but no reply. Had hoped he might have found a solution that would help me.

I am hoping against hope that someone will read this who has had this problem and found a solution. Both the dealership and a local non-Citroen garage heard of the symptoms and immediately said the injectors will have failed (all at once like that, though, and with no build-up to it, just one day fine, the next all four failed?). The non-Citroen garage said they'd had a few C3 1.4 HDis in for the same symptoms and had to replace all injectors to acquire a fix. I just find it hard to understand why it'd be so sudden without a gradual deterioration. Also, why would the injectors not have got worse and worse over the following two years?

Anyway, I'm going to end this long, long post now, and hope my plea for help reaches the right ears. There must be an answer. Today I checked the coolant temperature sensor, which was reading 9.8 Kilohms at outside temperature of 10 degrees. After running engine for 10 minutes or so, it read 2.8 Kilohms. No specifications available to tell if that's right or not. Tried to check the MAP and MAF sensors, but being piezo I couldn't. I can only state that the thermistor (temp sensor) inside the MAF unit was reading 3 Kilohm at around 16 degrees which sounds right for an NTC sensor, and the two pins for the ceramic element part were reading around 83 Kilohm. Disconnecting the MAP and MAF while the engine was running didn't seem to change anything, although there seemed a slight difference when MAF was disconnected. However, engine was still cold and car still billowing smoke anyway, so perhaps bad time to test by disconnecting the sensors (one at a time, not both together). Also unsure if disconnecting those sensors at low revs makes much difference. I know on my petrol Clio disconnecting the MAP caused the engine to immediately become lumpy and almost cut out. Not too savvy with diesels. Wanted to take ECU apart to check for any issues since electronics is my trade, but it's siliconed together and instead of screws, the plastic back has lugs which are melted over the holes in the top metal plate to stick the plate in place. Didn't want to start drilling the plastic away to release the lid.

What's the answer?

Thanks if you managed to read all, or most, of this.

James
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steelcityuk
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Post by steelcityuk »

Sorry I can't help directly but those symptoms sound very nice like injector pump failure on the 2.0 HDi. Usually with those the engine starts cutting out first before it refuses to start. Signs of such failure are metal fragments in the fuel filter housing, I haven't worked on a 1.4 HDi so don't know if this is easy to check like it is on the 2.0 HDi. On the 2.0 Hdi usually the lift pump in the tank disintergrates shedding metal into the fuel system which then eats the injector pump and injectors, maybe the 1.4 HDi doesn't have a lift pump? Misfuelling at some stage is reckoned to be the start of it all.

I really hope I'm wrong because it's very expensive to put right. Try giving Feather Diesel a call and see what they say.

http://www.feather-diesel.co.uk/

Steve.
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JamesQB
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Post by JamesQB »

As far as I'm aware, there's no lift pump, just an electric pump under the bonnet (I think I've got that right, the only thing I do know for sure is that there's no pump in the fuel tank, only a sender unit for fuel gauge). The fuel then goes to a high pressure pump that delivers fuel to the common rail feeding the injectors.

Do you think Feather Diesel will help, it's just that from looking at their website, they seem to deal with manufacturers, not the public?
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Post by wheeler »

The Delphi C6 injection system on this engine has the lift pump combined with the high pressure pump which is driven from the timing belt. There is no electric pump under the bonnet.
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Post by JamesQB »

This topic is just one of many on this car and this particular problem, but I'll use this one to lay the whole sage to rest, especially for anyone who finds this via the search and wants to know the solution:

Bought a second-hand injector from a scrapyard using an online search form for a very reasonable sum, after my homemade leak-off test kit showed one injector to be suffering very high back leakage. Bugger to fit involving complete removal of high pressure pipe feeds to injectors and inlet manifold (re-used high-pressure pipes despite haynes advice; tightened to 20nm and no leaks on any).

After fitting it, the car was starting better but still smoking a fair bit and was running terribly - worse than before. Clattery too. Local garage with universal fault code reader was able to clear all the fault codes, but was unable to code in new injector c2i code (have to wait 2 weeks for chap at Citroen garage to come off holiday break to do that).

However, just clearing the fault codes made an incredible difference. It is running superbly and only smoked briefly when I floored it which may just be down to injector not being coded. But it was quiet, no clattering or rattling from the engine, gone was the rough running and feeling it was going to stall and no power at all, and it starts instantly, just like it used too all those years ago...

Still a bit of lag before turbo kicks in but I'll eventually replace turbo solenoid valve at back of engine to see if that cures that trouble.

8-)
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Re: Citroen C3 1.4 HDi hard to start, white smoke, clatterin

Post by roybas »

Anyone with this problem please try putting a full bottle of diesel power eco max(made by miller oils) into about £15.00 worth of diesel. you might be amazed like me. Feel free to contact me on 07903199218 and i will be more than happy to discuss your problems, My name is roy.
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