Xantia 1993 suspension problem
Moderator: RichardW
Xantia 1993 suspension problem
Hi, new to the site and the car, so please bear with me !! Just taken a 1993 Xantia non turbo diesel, with rear suspension problem, in that it will not rise from the lowest position, I have been told that it may do after time when driven, I have also been told that if I jack the car up it will stay up for a couple of days and then drop again, can anyone tell me if either of these things will happen or what the problem may be ? The previous owner said that he topped up half a litre of fluid a fortnight and this did the trick until recently, so I am guessing it is a pump problem ? Any advice very gratefully accepted, thanks.
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If memory serves, '93 were sinkers, so when you turn the engine off, the car will drop down rather than remain at the normal running height.
When you set the suspension to high, does the car raise properly at both ends?
With it on high and fully raised, check that the orange hat in the clear bulb on the resevoir under the bonnet is between the two red lines. No major problem if it's above the lines, excess lhm will just spill out as it sloshes around.
Take a look at this thread http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 95&start=0
Remember, if you're working under the car, use axle stands as the car could drop down and flatten you.
When you set the suspension to high, does the car raise properly at both ends?
With it on high and fully raised, check that the orange hat in the clear bulb on the resevoir under the bonnet is between the two red lines. No major problem if it's above the lines, excess lhm will just spill out as it sloshes around.
Take a look at this thread http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 95&start=0
Remember, if you're working under the car, use axle stands as the car could drop down and flatten you.
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1.9TD SX Xantia Hatchback (Jenny) running on 100% veg for sale
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Welcome to the forum,
First thing to realise is that you can get most things for these cars for not too much money as so many are being scrapped or broken for parts.
Its not because they are poor quality cars, moreso because they are worth more in parts than as a runing vehicle. The british have never been too keen on the suspension system thinking its overcomplicated. Which it isnt really.
On to your problem..... First thing to do is check for leaks.....if the car has an LHM leak somewhere which can be simply a split pipe somewhere then the system will not pressurise properly. The steering / brakes and suspension will all be affected as will the tick rate of the accumulator as it will be trying to work overtime to keep the pressure right.
From my experience if the car is losing LHM it is leaking it somewhere as they dont burn it like cars burn oil.
Get the suspension up and lay cardboard underneath the entire underside of the car. Run the engine and turn the steering from side to side, pump the brakes and let it idle for a while. knock it off and then leave the car overnight. If you have a leak it will show on the cardboard.
Cardbord works better than a concrete drive as the dripping action will pit the cardboard. then trace any leaks directly upward.
If its a pipe split then these can be repaired in most cases quite easily.
If its something else like a height corrector problem then you may need parts once all other checks have been carried out.
Either way, you will get there
I had a 93 Xantia a while back with suspension problems not too dissimilar to what you describe. This cost me £600 to put right. That said though most of that was labour and i didnt know about this forum and the help available
First thing to realise is that you can get most things for these cars for not too much money as so many are being scrapped or broken for parts.
Its not because they are poor quality cars, moreso because they are worth more in parts than as a runing vehicle. The british have never been too keen on the suspension system thinking its overcomplicated. Which it isnt really.
On to your problem..... First thing to do is check for leaks.....if the car has an LHM leak somewhere which can be simply a split pipe somewhere then the system will not pressurise properly. The steering / brakes and suspension will all be affected as will the tick rate of the accumulator as it will be trying to work overtime to keep the pressure right.
From my experience if the car is losing LHM it is leaking it somewhere as they dont burn it like cars burn oil.
Get the suspension up and lay cardboard underneath the entire underside of the car. Run the engine and turn the steering from side to side, pump the brakes and let it idle for a while. knock it off and then leave the car overnight. If you have a leak it will show on the cardboard.
Cardbord works better than a concrete drive as the dripping action will pit the cardboard. then trace any leaks directly upward.
If its a pipe split then these can be repaired in most cases quite easily.
If its something else like a height corrector problem then you may need parts once all other checks have been carried out.
Either way, you will get there
I had a 93 Xantia a while back with suspension problems not too dissimilar to what you describe. This cost me £600 to put right. That said though most of that was labour and i didnt know about this forum and the help available
1993 Citroen xm 2.1td, silver/grey, bowling ball wheel trims, 210k and climbing...
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CitroJim
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That is a serious amount of LHM to be loosing. If you cannot find an obvious leak, there are two places to look:
The brake Dosuer Valve; this is the analogue of the master cylinder in ordinary cars and it can leak at the front and LHM can run down inside the drivers footwell and under the carpet. The rear suspension is interconnected with the Dosuer so any loss of pressure caused by a duff/leaky Dosuer will have ramifications at the rear.
The second place is the steering pinion valve on the top of the steeruing rack and connected to the steering column. This valve can leak LHM badly and sometimes invisivbly as it leaks inside the rack and you don't know until the rack is full of LHM and it starts to leak out of the gaiters.
A good check is to time the pressure regulator ticks. If they are very rapid, you have internal pressure problems although sinkers never have wildly long tick intervals. they can hiss rather than tick as well.
I suspect you are suffering an internal pressure loss as well as an LHM leak. You might too have a flat accumulator sphere.
How long does it take to extinguish the STOP light on the first start of the day?
The hydraulics on the early sinkers are totally different to the later anti-sink models and a lot of parts are not very interchangeable. One big issue they have is the use of a single output pump and an FDV to share pressure between the steering and suspension/brakes.
Sinker hydraulics are not very plentiful these days as the sinkers were in production only for a very short while.
Another aspect of the sinker is that the car, once up to pressure, will rise and fall on the height lever very rapidly. If it is at all sluggish in rising and falling on the lever, there is a problem.
As Vince says, you'll get there and it's worth persevering
The brake Dosuer Valve; this is the analogue of the master cylinder in ordinary cars and it can leak at the front and LHM can run down inside the drivers footwell and under the carpet. The rear suspension is interconnected with the Dosuer so any loss of pressure caused by a duff/leaky Dosuer will have ramifications at the rear.
The second place is the steering pinion valve on the top of the steeruing rack and connected to the steering column. This valve can leak LHM badly and sometimes invisivbly as it leaks inside the rack and you don't know until the rack is full of LHM and it starts to leak out of the gaiters.
A good check is to time the pressure regulator ticks. If they are very rapid, you have internal pressure problems although sinkers never have wildly long tick intervals. they can hiss rather than tick as well.
I suspect you are suffering an internal pressure loss as well as an LHM leak. You might too have a flat accumulator sphere.
How long does it take to extinguish the STOP light on the first start of the day?
The hydraulics on the early sinkers are totally different to the later anti-sink models and a lot of parts are not very interchangeable. One big issue they have is the use of a single output pump and an FDV to share pressure between the steering and suspension/brakes.
Sinker hydraulics are not very plentiful these days as the sinkers were in production only for a very short while.
Another aspect of the sinker is that the car, once up to pressure, will rise and fall on the height lever very rapidly. If it is at all sluggish in rising and falling on the lever, there is a problem.
As Vince says, you'll get there and it's worth persevering
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
I'd always suspect the height correctors first with any height issue! 
The clue is in the name...
The other likely place to lose LHM where it won't be immediately obvious is
the fluid leak off return on each of the front struts where the constant dribble
of fluid could get washed away in the wet/grime of use. Check they're actually
secured on the rigid metal pipes that run away into the engine bay and that
there are no splits on the tight bend off the side of the strut.
Another favourite for leakage is from the seal on the hydraulic high pressure
pump and it runs straight off the front of the pump and direct onto the road
as the pump is physically so low down.
Andrew
The clue is in the name...
The other likely place to lose LHM where it won't be immediately obvious is
the fluid leak off return on each of the front struts where the constant dribble
of fluid could get washed away in the wet/grime of use. Check they're actually
secured on the rigid metal pipes that run away into the engine bay and that
there are no splits on the tight bend off the side of the strut.
Another favourite for leakage is from the seal on the hydraulic high pressure
pump and it runs straight off the front of the pump and direct onto the road
as the pump is physically so low down.
Andrew
Hi All
Many thanks for the advice so far, I have investigated further and it now seems that neither front nor rear suspension is working, at all !
There seems to be a heavy leak from the pump which looks like it is at the union of the metal pipe as it joins the pump, the car was driven some distance yesterday, initially there were no brakes, I eventually managed to get a little pedal after topping the LHM fluid up and running around on private ground.
Once I had some brake, the car was moved, the suspension did not rise at all and the power steering did not operate, however the brake pedal continued to work.
The brake pedal is now again inoperative after standing overnight, I have noted on the forum that this leak could possibly be solved by replacing a washer at the metal pipe union with the pump ??? Or does this sound like a total failure of the pump ?? Just looking for ideas as to what to replace first, the car has cost me very little and is in very good condition so is worth saving, also anyone recommend a good breakers or used parts company ?
Any help again very much appreciated.
Thanks
Many thanks for the advice so far, I have investigated further and it now seems that neither front nor rear suspension is working, at all !
There seems to be a heavy leak from the pump which looks like it is at the union of the metal pipe as it joins the pump, the car was driven some distance yesterday, initially there were no brakes, I eventually managed to get a little pedal after topping the LHM fluid up and running around on private ground.
Once I had some brake, the car was moved, the suspension did not rise at all and the power steering did not operate, however the brake pedal continued to work.
The brake pedal is now again inoperative after standing overnight, I have noted on the forum that this leak could possibly be solved by replacing a washer at the metal pipe union with the pump ??? Or does this sound like a total failure of the pump ?? Just looking for ideas as to what to replace first, the car has cost me very little and is in very good condition so is worth saving, also anyone recommend a good breakers or used parts company ?
Any help again very much appreciated.
Thanks
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CitroJim
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Nick,
The washer you're thinking of is not applicable to the sinker pump. Before we go too much further it might be a good thought to confirm it is a sinker you have. The pump will only have one rubber LHM supply pipe and one metal delivery pipe if it is; anti-sinks have two metal delivery pipes.
These pipes do not have any rubber washers and are more akin to a brake pipe flare on a conventional car.
I'd suspect for a pressure loss like that, the pipe is split near the union. Vibration can cause this, not unusual, and it's made worse if the pipe is not properly supported in it's "P" clips. It only takes a tiny split in the pipe to make a real mess of things. There's up to 170bars of pressure at this point.
Give the pipe and puump a really good clean-up and watch very carefully and the source of the leak should reveal.
A new pipe may be hard to get. Martin at Pleiades may be able to help fabricate a replacement but if it all goes horribly wrong, speak to me again. I too have a sinker
The washer you're thinking of is not applicable to the sinker pump. Before we go too much further it might be a good thought to confirm it is a sinker you have. The pump will only have one rubber LHM supply pipe and one metal delivery pipe if it is; anti-sinks have two metal delivery pipes.
These pipes do not have any rubber washers and are more akin to a brake pipe flare on a conventional car.
I'd suspect for a pressure loss like that, the pipe is split near the union. Vibration can cause this, not unusual, and it's made worse if the pipe is not properly supported in it's "P" clips. It only takes a tiny split in the pipe to make a real mess of things. There's up to 170bars of pressure at this point.
Give the pipe and puump a really good clean-up and watch very carefully and the source of the leak should reveal.
A new pipe may be hard to get. Martin at Pleiades may be able to help fabricate a replacement but if it all goes horribly wrong, speak to me again. I too have a sinker
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Hi
Ok, gave all round the pump a good clean and can see a leak coming from one of two hexagonal screws / plugs on the pump, the one that the leak is coming from is on the bottom of the pump.
It seems that both the ingoing and outgoing pipes to the pump are dry, would this leak be enough to cause the type of failure that I have had ??
Also does the system need bleeding and is this an easy fix for this leak ??
Please help !
Thanks
Ok, gave all round the pump a good clean and can see a leak coming from one of two hexagonal screws / plugs on the pump, the one that the leak is coming from is on the bottom of the pump.
It seems that both the ingoing and outgoing pipes to the pump are dry, would this leak be enough to cause the type of failure that I have had ??
Also does the system need bleeding and is this an easy fix for this leak ??
Please help !
Thanks
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CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
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- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
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Hi Nick,
The screws/plugs you refer to are the torx socketed piston head caps and there should be seven of them equally spaced around the pump.
There is, I believe, an O ring under each. These plugs are incredibly tight and getting them undone is a 'mare and there is a danger of small precision bits going walkabout if you do. Not really a DIY job to sort out.
Have a word with Pleiades and I'm sure Martin will be happy to advise and help you arrange a pump rebuild. Last time I visited him, he had several Xantia pumps on the bench being rebuilt.
After a pump has been disturbed, it will be necessary to prime the suction side of the pump with LHM and do a good bout of "Citarobics" (susopension repeatedly up and down on the lever) to expel entrained air in the system, generally and then it is a good idea to bleed the brakes to expel any air trapped in the hydraulic "dead-ends" to the calipers. Bleeding is a lovely, easy job on a Hydraulic Citroen as LHM is non-hygroscopic and rarely are nipples seized.
Have a look at the "Spheres, Hydraflush and Brake Bleeding" Sticky at the top of this forum for a bit more information on brake bleeding.
The screws/plugs you refer to are the torx socketed piston head caps and there should be seven of them equally spaced around the pump.
There is, I believe, an O ring under each. These plugs are incredibly tight and getting them undone is a 'mare and there is a danger of small precision bits going walkabout if you do. Not really a DIY job to sort out.
Have a word with Pleiades and I'm sure Martin will be happy to advise and help you arrange a pump rebuild. Last time I visited him, he had several Xantia pumps on the bench being rebuilt.
After a pump has been disturbed, it will be necessary to prime the suction side of the pump with LHM and do a good bout of "Citarobics" (susopension repeatedly up and down on the lever) to expel entrained air in the system, generally and then it is a good idea to bleed the brakes to expel any air trapped in the hydraulic "dead-ends" to the calipers. Bleeding is a lovely, easy job on a Hydraulic Citroen as LHM is non-hygroscopic and rarely are nipples seized.
Have a look at the "Spheres, Hydraflush and Brake Bleeding" Sticky at the top of this forum for a bit more information on brake bleeding.
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...