HELP I think I've broken it Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1998

TAT2 · Post by **TAT2** » 31 Dec 2008, 19:26

Hi All had the above for about a month now no real problems apart from the leaky back door and pond in rear footwell but nothing I can't sort myself

Anyway whent out to start it this evening and let it run for 10 mins with the fan on because there was as much ice inside the windows as outside

Starts with CRUNCH not like a sticking starting motor more of a summat hard hitting metal

Didn't take any longer to start just the noise on intial turn over. Got out listened to engine everything sounds fine. Stopped and restarted to check for repeat of said crunch nothing starts fine no problems.

Leaves for 10mins to clear windscreen. Temp guage starting to rise but air not even remotely warm. Anyway clears ice on inside of window (De-icer) and I procede on my journey. Driving for a couple of minutes, less than quater of a mile, and temp guage is reading close on 110 air from 'heaters' still blowing stone colld.

At this point I return home not wanting the head to part company with the rest of the engine!! Turn engine off fan still going ten to the dozen.

Any suggestions where do I start to look??

Post by **myglaren** » 31 Dec 2008, 19:44

Symptoms indicate to me that the water pump isn't being driven and that the crunch was the shaft fracturing.

I hope someone can point to another, simpler fault 'cause it is a bit of a bugger to get at to confirm.

DickieG · Post by **DickieG** » 31 Dec 2008, 19:45

The first thing to do is check the coolant level as it appears you may have lost a significant amount.

The noise you may have heard could possibly be either a hose popping off or worse still a block of ice being dislodged if the coolant lacked anti-freeze on a very cold morning.

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 31 Dec 2008, 19:48

Hi...Sorry to bring what COULD be bad news...

Sounds like VERY bad news, with a Lack of Anti freeze... sounds It may have frozen... adding to that, if the car has been running without anti freeze, its probably got a poorly head gasket too... running without anti freeze will cause Rusty water in the block and it blocks up the head gasket...

Firstly, the cooling system will need thawing out to see if theres any water escape... the best way of checking head gasket WHEN The cooling system is all free, fill the system up, run the car as you doo, and see how long it takes for heat to come through to the heater... This can only be done KNOWING your cooling system is thawed out...

You should be getting some form of heat EVEN before the needle gets to the 65 deg C, if it takes a warmer reading then this for a bit of heat then its bad news...

Were are you located?

Rgds
Paul

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 31 Dec 2008, 19:51

myglaren wrote:Symptoms indicate to me that the water pump isn't being driven and that the crunch was the shaft fracturing.

I hope someone can point to another, simpler fault 'cause it is a bit of a bugger to get at to confirm.

Water pump is driven by the Cam belt.. thats intact as the engine still runs...
unless the fins have sheared on the impeller..

Sounds like an engine with no or little anti freeze, which could very well lead to a head off job..

Paul

Post by **CitroJim** » 31 Dec 2008, 20:00

citroenxm wrote: Sounds like an engine with no or little anti freeze, which could very well lead to a head off job..

Paul

Sadly, I concur.... Hopefully just frozen water and it'll have a happy outcome...

Water pump must be checked though to see if it has a full complement of impeller blades...

I once had a 205GTi with a cracked block because no antifreeze had been used. At least on an iron blocked engine there's a chance a core plug will have popped to help save the day.

TAT2 · Post by **TAT2** » 31 Dec 2008, 20:21

Thanks guys I think

Apart from the ten minute warm up though I didn't drive more than five minutes - it's not like I've driven miles with the temp hot - would that really be enough to kill the head gasket?

I had a quick look when I got it and there was anti freeze in it but as to how much i don't know.

If the coolant was frozen is it not just as likely that ice has gone through the water pump and smashed the impellors?

The engine and box are still under warranty, bought it from a garage - levels etc. SHOULD have been checked prior to collection, but if lack of antifreeze is the problem It could be argued whose at fault

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 31 Dec 2008, 20:50

ANY Modern Garage mechanic SHOULD damm well know that an Alloy head on a Cast block WILL HAVE to have more then enough anti freeze in it, as its NOT there just to protectfrom freezing but also to do the job of NOT rusting up the Gasket asI said above....

A head gasket can be checked as I described above, because the heater FEED comes FROM the Cylinder head above the gasket, and the heater return goes down to the lower block.... thats the direction of flow... so blocked up head gasket, restricted water flow, less ater into heater, little heat out put... anyway, thats for checking once the cause of the crunch is found and weither the water is thawed enough for free flowing...

Good luck with your garage argument....

NOT a good start for the new year, I hope it improves for you!

Rgds
Paul

DickieG · Post by **DickieG** » 31 Dec 2008, 20:51

TAT2 wrote:Apart from the ten minute warm up though I didn't drive more than five minutes - it's not like I've driven miles with the temp hot - would that really be enough to kill the head gasket?

Difficult to say.

TAT2 wrote:If the coolant was frozen is it not just as likely that ice has gone through the water pump and smashed the impellors?

Quite possibly.

Xaccers · Post by **Xaccers** » 01 Jan 2009, 02:07

A girl I knew when working at NTL bought a 2 year old Corsa from a Vauxhall dealer.
One icy morning it died on the way to work, the water pump fins sheered off due to ice in the coolant, and in her case destroyed the head.
Dealer offered to replace head for £1200.
She took it to an indie who discovered a very rusty block and no anti-freeze.
As the dealer had been the sole servicer of the car under it's previous owner, she managed to get them to replace the head for free.

As the car is driveable, at least that points to the cam belt not slipping.
Best bet would be to get the coolant tested for adequte anti-freeze, and if it's low, then look into removing the water pump (it's not that hard a job) and see what damage has been done.
Depending on the mileage, it might be worth swapping the cam belt and any tensioners that need doing at the same time for added peace of mind.

TAT2 · Post by **TAT2** » 01 Jan 2009, 02:45

Cambelts and tensioners where replaced last year according to the receipts and service history and the paperwork shows dealer services from new to now.

I'm no mechanic, to say the least, but I will be amazed if such a short run has done any damage to the head, bearing in mind that all was fine yesterday with over 100 miles racked up, but I could be wrong - wouldn't be the first time

Having spoken to a friend in the 'trade' he is under the impression that even if there was no anti freeze in the car at all then this is the dealers problem i.e. sold not fit for purpose but opinions and reality are often two quite different things.

Will check the coolant system tomorrow when I can see what I'm doing and see wether or not it still resembles liquid

A knackered water pump would also prevent the heaters blowing hot air wouldn't it? Yes I'm trying to convince myself as much as anyone else

Was feeling pretty p1ssed off and generally anti social earlier. Then the wife had a chat on messenger with one of her old school friends who she contacted via Friends Reunited a few months ago. A couple of weeks ago she got a message from another old friend. Turns out this friend and her husband were both killed in a car crash last week. Me whining about my car problems pale into insignificance after hearing that.

Whatever the outcome who cares? Sh1t happens - things could most definitely be worse.

Happy New Year to you all hope you've had a good 'un.

Cheers

TAT

Xaccers · Post by **Xaccers** » 01 Jan 2009, 17:19

Just remember, they're tough engines, I had the cam belt snap on Cassy at 40mph on the M25 and all she needed was a new cam.

If it turns out there is no anti-freeze in the coolant, and so ice caused the pump to sheer, get the RAC etc to do an independant report, and then slap the garage that last replaced the coolant around and demand they fix the car and re-imburse you for the cost of the report.

Chances are it'll just need the timing checking and a new water pump fitted (and of course new proper coolant!)

You could take the cam cover off the top of the engine and take a look. If the cam and it's caps (which hold it in place) are all intact, then your timing isn't likely to be out. If something's broken, then valves have kissed pistons.

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 01 Jan 2009, 18:24

If valves have hit pistons then theres a good chance of NO bent valves... fitting a Cam - which isn't a straight fit and go job - and cap bearings may well sort the running out....

replacing the cam will also need valve clearences resetting, and 8/10 the cap bearings will go tight when fitted to your head, this is due to the fact that cap bearings and head are a machined match... the job is possible though, Ive done its about 5 times now quite successfully..

THIS IS OF COURSE if theres no compression and the engine DOES NOT run any more... IF your engine does still run but just gets hot, then it may wel be just a Water Pump failure... I would still bear in mind though, if theres a lack of anti freeze what I said about how long it takes for heat to come through to the car heater when you have her all up and running again..

Rgds
Paul