xantia cuttin out
Moderator: RichardW
xantia cuttin out
hi there got a xantia 2.1 1998 great car .. but started to develop few problem now .. drive along normal drivin then suddenly go to change up gear and the car cut s out the speedo revs up then down to 0 and the management light comes on so come to a stop then try starting again and away she goes but no manage light on but cant rev past 3000. if do it shut down again but if keep goin on journay you can hardly rev it atall it keeps cuttin the car out.
have cleaned the pick up in tank and new fuel filter also taken away hand primer for pump a was suckin its self in before. put on code reader and no codes but only get 1 comein when first breaks down but when restart it it goes away. it says shut off valve. mine the lucas pump all electric any ideas ??? im lost ?? thanks
have cleaned the pick up in tank and new fuel filter also taken away hand primer for pump a was suckin its self in before. put on code reader and no codes but only get 1 comein when first breaks down but when restart it it goes away. it says shut off valve. mine the lucas pump all electric any ideas ??? im lost ?? thanks
- CitroJim
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If you were having problems with the primer collapsing, you have a restriction somewhere. Check very carefully the fuel return line is clear as you'll have these problems if it's blocked. Blow down it and hear bubbling in the tank.
Just before we go any further, you've not been running on veggie oil have you? Veg and the EPIC don't mix and it's a death sentence for the pump.
If you've never touched veg and all fuel lines are proved clear then prepare yourself for the next bit. Sit down with a stiff drink You'll need it.
The problem may be with one of the ESOS valves in the pump. It's a very complex set of electrovalves that function as the stop solenoid, timing control and throttle control and they commonly fail due to the rubber pad on the end failing. Quite often the failure causes the engine to run on after switching off the ignition.
About the only other vehicles to use EPIC pumps (except Pug 406s) were Transit vans and their owners turn purple at the very mention of them.
This from the Ford Transit Forum sheds a little light.
It looks a DIY job, just, if you have lots of experience of working on mechanical diesel pumps and very small intricate mechanisms, otherwise it's a specialist job.
The EPIC pump is a good 'un though (when fed an exclusive diet of diesel) and well worth having repaired although it will be very expensive. Mind you, a 2.1TD is such a lovely car it's well worth doing.
EPIC pumps in scrapyards are very rare and expensive. Also, you have to get the right one as they are power rated. A tranny one say, is not necessarily suitable for a Xantia. An oft-held belief is that the pump itself is coded to the immobiliser. I don't believe this to be so. The ECU does the immobilising, not the pump itself so if you can find an otherwise dead 2.1TD Xantia, XM or 406 with the pump still present, you should be OK with it.
If all else fails, be the first to fit a mechanical Bosch VP20 pump to a 2.1TD It's theoretically possible with difficulty, many have spoken of it but so far, no one has owned up to doing it yet. We all need to know if indeed it can be done!
Just before we go any further, you've not been running on veggie oil have you? Veg and the EPIC don't mix and it's a death sentence for the pump.
If you've never touched veg and all fuel lines are proved clear then prepare yourself for the next bit. Sit down with a stiff drink You'll need it.
The problem may be with one of the ESOS valves in the pump. It's a very complex set of electrovalves that function as the stop solenoid, timing control and throttle control and they commonly fail due to the rubber pad on the end failing. Quite often the failure causes the engine to run on after switching off the ignition.
About the only other vehicles to use EPIC pumps (except Pug 406s) were Transit vans and their owners turn purple at the very mention of them.
This from the Ford Transit Forum sheds a little light.
It looks a DIY job, just, if you have lots of experience of working on mechanical diesel pumps and very small intricate mechanisms, otherwise it's a specialist job.
The EPIC pump is a good 'un though (when fed an exclusive diet of diesel) and well worth having repaired although it will be very expensive. Mind you, a 2.1TD is such a lovely car it's well worth doing.
EPIC pumps in scrapyards are very rare and expensive. Also, you have to get the right one as they are power rated. A tranny one say, is not necessarily suitable for a Xantia. An oft-held belief is that the pump itself is coded to the immobiliser. I don't believe this to be so. The ECU does the immobilising, not the pump itself so if you can find an otherwise dead 2.1TD Xantia, XM or 406 with the pump still present, you should be OK with it.
If all else fails, be the first to fit a mechanical Bosch VP20 pump to a 2.1TD It's theoretically possible with difficulty, many have spoken of it but so far, no one has owned up to doing it yet. We all need to know if indeed it can be done!
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
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hi mate on never ran on veg oil to my knowledge any way. the primer was like the atcual had lots it shape even when not conected it wouldnt keep it s shape. i ve taken this off alltogether.i will test the return pipes tomorrow.
wat wbout these pumps ?? as mine is a lucas and most of the 406 and other xantias have a bosch pumps. would need to ask auto spark about this ??.
wats is this vp20???? thanks again
wat wbout these pumps ?? as mine is a lucas and most of the 406 and other xantias have a bosch pumps. would need to ask auto spark about this ??.
wats is this vp20???? thanks again
- CitroJim
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Good, pleased to hear it's never seen veg. It'll live again!
If it runs on, that does tend to confirm it's an ESOS issue.
Yes, I believe you can buy spares. Merlin Diesel is a good place to start.
I don't have an exploded diagram of the EPIC but I believe there is one deep in the members area of the Transit Forum. If you join, you should be able to get access to it and I'm sure somewhere hiding in that forum are fairly detailed instructions, with pictures, on how to replace the ESOS assembly. I found it once, forgot to bookmark it and I've never since been able to find it again If you find it before me, let me know!
The EPIC was only used on the 2.1TD engines in the Xantia, later XM and 406. 1.9TD engines in the same cars invariably had the Bosch VP20 pump. Earlier 2.1TD engines fitted to the XM and some PSA white vans had a mechanical Bosch pump fitted.
The VP20 is the Bosch mechanical pump with electronic timing control fited to many 1.9TD engines in PSA vehicles. Sometimes it's known as the EP-VE or VP20-AS3. There is a very similar pump to the VP20 that is fully mechanical and found on pre-1996 1.9TD engines. Confusingly also known as the VP20. These are the best bet if you contemplate doing a mechanical pump conversion on a 2.1TD.
This is the VP20-AS3... The mechanical VP20 looks virtually identical but has an electical timing device on the side.
If it runs on, that does tend to confirm it's an ESOS issue.
Yes, I believe you can buy spares. Merlin Diesel is a good place to start.
I don't have an exploded diagram of the EPIC but I believe there is one deep in the members area of the Transit Forum. If you join, you should be able to get access to it and I'm sure somewhere hiding in that forum are fairly detailed instructions, with pictures, on how to replace the ESOS assembly. I found it once, forgot to bookmark it and I've never since been able to find it again If you find it before me, let me know!
The EPIC was only used on the 2.1TD engines in the Xantia, later XM and 406. 1.9TD engines in the same cars invariably had the Bosch VP20 pump. Earlier 2.1TD engines fitted to the XM and some PSA white vans had a mechanical Bosch pump fitted.
The VP20 is the Bosch mechanical pump with electronic timing control fited to many 1.9TD engines in PSA vehicles. Sometimes it's known as the EP-VE or VP20-AS3. There is a very similar pump to the VP20 that is fully mechanical and found on pre-1996 1.9TD engines. Confusingly also known as the VP20. These are the best bet if you contemplate doing a mechanical pump conversion on a 2.1TD.
This is the VP20-AS3... The mechanical VP20 looks virtually identical but has an electical timing device on the side.
Jim
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Re: xantia cuttin out
If the primer pump was sucking itself in then that to me would sound like a blockage between the primer pump and the tank...swadger25 wrote: have cleaned the pick up in tank and new fuel filter also taken away hand primer for pump a was suckin its self in before.
think of it like this, if the engine sucking fuel from the tank, and there was a blockage near the tank you would all the air from the primer pump first wouldn't you.
now you say you've cleaned the strainer from the tank and done the filter, the 2.1td came with clear fuel lines, get someone to crank ur car, and you watch what happens in the fuel lines. it may give you some clues.
i wouldn't have taken the primer pump out myself, although it doesn't matter until you need to manually pump fuel into the pump by hand for an easier start up
i reckon it's air ballsing it all up cos of a blockage somewhere. I can't quite explain it but i can see something like that in my head, but thats my thoughts at the moment, the lucas pump is sensitve to air in the fuel
jim does know a lot more than me though!
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That's a very fair point Dei, the primer bulb is essential on a EPIC as the pump is not "open" like the Bosch and will never self prime. Hence the reason it has a bleed nipple on the fuel union. Do replace it. They're not expensive.
Dei, Good point too about air. That has to be the first thing to ensure, that the fuel supply to the pump is completely air-free. Air in the fuel can, in extremis, cause an engine runaway. Luckily, the 2.1TD is provided with quite a lobng length of transparant fuel line from the filter to the pump to make air observation easier. My own 2.1TD has had the line from the primer to the fuel filter replaced with clear line so air can be seen ahead of the filter. This is a good modification.
Only delve into the ESOS if both fuel lines are totally clear and air is conclusively proved not to be the problem.
Also, the problem could be electrical. The Pump and ECU connectors may stand a check/clean and also the double injection relay could be a source of the problem, causing an intermittent supply to the ECU. Be sure to disconnect the battery before disconnecting any ECU or pump connectors.
Dei, Good point too about air. That has to be the first thing to ensure, that the fuel supply to the pump is completely air-free. Air in the fuel can, in extremis, cause an engine runaway. Luckily, the 2.1TD is provided with quite a lobng length of transparant fuel line from the filter to the pump to make air observation easier. My own 2.1TD has had the line from the primer to the fuel filter replaced with clear line so air can be seen ahead of the filter. This is a good modification.
Only delve into the ESOS if both fuel lines are totally clear and air is conclusively proved not to be the problem.
Also, the problem could be electrical. The Pump and ECU connectors may stand a check/clean and also the double injection relay could be a source of the problem, causing an intermittent supply to the ECU. Be sure to disconnect the battery before disconnecting any ECU or pump connectors.
Jim
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thanks alot citrojim lot of info to look at there .no sure on the changing pump bit as all this fly by wire throttle stuff. will have look for stuff on transit site as well. goin to check the fuel lines . i know they is both clear pipe from fuel line into filter and coming out filter . im sure i ve got bubbles of air in pipe from filter to pump? would realy like to find out more on this pump convertion. in long run going to be easyier to fix etc
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Ahh, right, if you can see air in the fuel line to the pump then this is the first thing to rectify. I critically looked at my own 2.1TD this morning and the lines are totally free of air under all circumstances. If you are seeing air downwind of the filter (but not before) then the filter housing is a prime suspect. As the fuel lines are under suction, you'll never see a leak but even the tiniest crack can admit air.
Filter housings do fail. Note though, although the housing looks the same as the 1.9TD housing, it is, in fact, different. The 2.1TD filter element is a lot larger.
Although they don't normally cause problems on a lesser Lucas pump, I'd be inclined to replace the injector leakoff pipes as a precaution. These are the little black pipes daisy-chained between the injectors and feeding back to the pump return line. They go brittle over time and leak; on Bosch pumps they cause all kinds of problems when they crack and leak. Replace too the blanking cap on No. 1 injector. Bad leakoff pipes can upset the pump transfer pressure regulation. At this time I don't know enough of the EPIC internals to know if the same applies but looking at the scant technical information I've seen detailing the basic working principles of the pump, I suspect it does.
As regards the conversion to a Bosch mechanical pump, I stress that at the moment it's all just theory. It should be possible but none of us yet know for sure. You'd need a VP20 pump, a set of Bosch injectors and their associated pipes to begin with. Then there's the problem of rigging up a throttle cable and retaining some ECU functionality for the instruments, boost overfuelling and glowplug controller. I have it as a long-term back-burner project and I'm patiently waiting for a 2.1TD with a dead EPIC to land on my driveway to put theory into practice. At this moment I don't know for certain if a VP20 will mount on the 2.1TD pump cradle. I have one here and soon I'll give it a go. Once ther mechanical and electrical issue are sorted, the pump will need some careful adjustment to optimise timing and fuel delivery for the bigger engine.
One thig for sure, I'm not using my 2.1TD as a ginuea pig for this. I rather like the EPIC and the fuel economy it gives.
Filter housings do fail. Note though, although the housing looks the same as the 1.9TD housing, it is, in fact, different. The 2.1TD filter element is a lot larger.
Although they don't normally cause problems on a lesser Lucas pump, I'd be inclined to replace the injector leakoff pipes as a precaution. These are the little black pipes daisy-chained between the injectors and feeding back to the pump return line. They go brittle over time and leak; on Bosch pumps they cause all kinds of problems when they crack and leak. Replace too the blanking cap on No. 1 injector. Bad leakoff pipes can upset the pump transfer pressure regulation. At this time I don't know enough of the EPIC internals to know if the same applies but looking at the scant technical information I've seen detailing the basic working principles of the pump, I suspect it does.
As regards the conversion to a Bosch mechanical pump, I stress that at the moment it's all just theory. It should be possible but none of us yet know for sure. You'd need a VP20 pump, a set of Bosch injectors and their associated pipes to begin with. Then there's the problem of rigging up a throttle cable and retaining some ECU functionality for the instruments, boost overfuelling and glowplug controller. I have it as a long-term back-burner project and I'm patiently waiting for a 2.1TD with a dead EPIC to land on my driveway to put theory into practice. At this moment I don't know for certain if a VP20 will mount on the 2.1TD pump cradle. I have one here and soon I'll give it a go. Once ther mechanical and electrical issue are sorted, the pump will need some careful adjustment to optimise timing and fuel delivery for the bigger engine.
One thig for sure, I'm not using my 2.1TD as a ginuea pig for this. I rather like the EPIC and the fuel economy it gives.
Jim
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Don't even think about bypassing the fuel filter!!!!swadger25 wrote:has blown the fuel line s out no blockages! ok think ill try just bypassing the filter housing for the min to see if helps any!will change leak off s as well they are all thinks to aliminate before i jump to the pump i suppose thsnks
Check the mesh on the sender unit in the fuel tank under the back seat.
Dead easy to do but you may need a blunt flat screwdriver and hammer to unscrew the retaining ring.
You'll also need some small jubilee clips to reattache the fuel lines.
May not be the cause but ensuring it's clear is worth doing anyway.
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Even a blunt screwdriver wouldn't budge it for me, just kept knocking the lugs off.Xac wrote: Check the mesh on the sender unit in the fuel tank under the back seat.
Dead easy to do but you may need a blunt flat screwdriver and hammer to unscrew the retaining ring.
I used a long bit of wood that shaped around a couple of lugs and gave the bit of wood some light taps and all was free!
Kev
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